[noemon]

I've no idea what you're talking about here, the only thing I agree with is that Bulgaria is a miserable failure of a state, along with every other country that has territory on the Balkans.

Oh really? You the History Professor of PoFo has no idea of what i am talking about your own History?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_M ... ganization

Excerpt from the statute of BMARC, 1896 (in Bulgarian) Statute of the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees Chapter I. - Goal
Art. 1. The goal of BMARC is to secure full political autonomy for the Macedonia and Adrianople regions.
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas - printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising. Chapter II. - Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender,...

1. The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
2. Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
3. The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
4. The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
5. From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.

– [1]

According to Dr. Hristo Tatarchev:

We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn't accept the position for "direct joining to Bulgaria" because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn't take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later.

– [2]

In Dame Gruev's memoirs, the MRO's goals are stated as follows:

We grouped together and jointly worked out a statute. It was based on the same principles: demand for the implementation of the Berlin Treaty. The statute was worked out after the model of the Bulgarian revolutionary organisation before the Liberation. Our motto was "Implementation of the resolutions of the Berlin Treaty". We established a "Central Committee" with branches, membership fees, etc. Swearing in for each member was also envisaged. In the regulations there was nothing concerning the Serbian propaganda but we intended to counteract it by enlightening the people.

This is just some basics from wiki, if you want in depth analysis from the American foreign office, just ask for it.

Wasnt Greek Macedonia the reason Bulgaria joined Nazi Germany and was awarded it by Hitler?

If you believe your nation is a failure, it is your problem, it does not condone your petty nationalism of extending this idea to other nations.

What problem exactly? A name?

Whats already stated. If you cant read thats your problem. I wont repeat what i ve already stated. It is futile and suitable among elementary school children.

[Falx]

it does not condone your petty nationalism of extending this idea to other nations.

You mean like Greek petty nationalism?

It is futile and suitable among elementary school children.

I fully agree that this sums up the whole debate about the name of Macedonia.

[noemon]

You mean like Greek petty nationalism?

Your petty nationalism continues and accelerates. Nowhere have i called anyone a failed nation. And nowhere and never in my lifetime have i compared my nation with others unless i am responding to someone else's petty nationalist offenses like yourselves, Doomhammer's and the rest, which initiate the comparison in the first place. Unless you find incendiary offensive behavior in this forum of Greek petty nationalism regarding your interlocutor, you not only remain a Bulgarian petty nationalist but also a liar. Respect is earned not inherited like daddy's millions.

I fully agree that this sums up the whole debate about the name of Macedonia.

Do you know Aesop?

The fox and the grape?

Look it up.

[Falx]

Your petty nationalism continues and accelerates. Nowhere have i called anyone a failed nation. And nowhere and never in my lifetime have i compared my nation with others unless i am responding to someone else's petty nationalist offenses like yourselves, Doomhammer's and the rest, which initiate the comparison in the first place. Unless you find incendiary offensive behavior in this forum of Greek petty nationalism regarding your interlocutor, you not only remain a Bulgarian petty nationalist but also a liar.

So I am a petty Bulgarian nationalist because I think Bulgaria, along with all the other shitholes on the Balkans, are failed states?

R edit: Here's a better picture.

Do you know Aesop?

The fox and the grape?

Bulgaria already has a region in it called Macedonia, Pirinska Makedonia to be exact. So I really don't see why Bulgaria and the fox are equivalent as the country, if you extend the metaphor, has already tasted the grapes.

[noemon]

So I am a petty Bulgarian nationalist because I think Bulgaria, along with all the other shitholes on the Balkans, are failed states?

Yes, you are a petty nationalist, because you advertise that others are failed nations, without the one who you claim to be a petty nationalist performing the same action.

The fact that you consider your own nation as failed, does not condone your action in anyway or manner. It merely attempts to covert you petty jingoism regarding others which by definition makes you a petty nationalist.

Bulgaria already has a region in it called Macedonia, Pirinska Makedonia to be exact. So I really don't see why Bulgaria and the fox are equivalent as the country, if you extend the metaphor, has already tasted the grapes.

Am yes indeed like 0.5% of it, and that is why since you cant reach the grapes, you deem them unworthy, alltogether.

[Falx]

R edit: Here's a better picture.

So violent, and I rather liked my bunny, it showed the extreme stupidity of this whole debate.

Yes, you are a petty nationalist, because you advertise that others are failed nations, without the one who you claim to be a petty nationalist performing the same action.

Very good so far apart from one point, anyone from Communists to Fascists could easily claim that any state is a failed state. Since the claim is not exclusive to petty nationalists your argument is invalid.

The fact that you consider your own nation as failed, does not condone your action in anyway or manner. It merely attempts to covert you petty jingoism regarding others which by definition makes you a petty nationalist.

No, that would make me a jingoist at worst. However given the large disdain I hold for nation states, empires, etc it just makes me a critic of the current system of governments.

Am yes indeed like 0.5% of it, and that is why since you cant reach the grapes, you deem them unworthy, alltogether.

I did no such thing, the last Bulgarian king however might have.

Area of Macedonia:25,713 km²
Area of Pinin Macedonia: 6,449.5 km²

Your parable, and made up facts, on the other had fail miserably as 25% of a grape bunch, which average 20 grapes, is more than one. That means that the taste of the grapes is known and therefore the parable is not applicable to this case.

[noemon]

Very good so far apart from one point, anyone from Communists to Fascists could easily claim that any state is a failed state. Since the claim is not exclusive to petty nationalists your argument is invalid.

False, and cheap excuse. Fascists project their ideology as do Communists, the nations according to them are failed as far as the ideologies of these systems are concerned. Theirs is not petty nationalism but petty ideologism, yours is petty nationalism and verifiably so, combined with a dose of lying.

No, that would make me a jingoist at worst. However given the large disdain I hold for nation states, empires, etc it just makes me a critic of the current system of governments.

Every person has the right to criticize specific and well-defined activities of foreign nations, as far as the activities THEMSELVES are concerned. A petty nationalist generalizes arbitrarily and bashes other nations A petty nationalist also ignores to address the arguments, lies and produces ad hom's regarding his interlocutor, like yourself.

Your parable, and made up facts, on the other had fail miserably as 25% of a grape bunch, which average 20 grapes, is more than one. That means that the taste of the grapes is known and therefore the parable is not applicable to this case.

Oh yes, the contemporary map of Macedonia of Bulgarian and Yugoslavian nationalistic fiction. In fact the territory you hold is even less than 0.5% of Macedonia and above all and most importantly percentages aside, you have no exit to the Aegean and pretty Salonica , which is in fact the whole bone of contention among the Balkan states and and not petty percentages. And it has nothing to do with the Bulgarian King, but with yourself deeming it unworthy right here and now. The Bulgarian King did not deem it unworthy but far from it, you did.

The parable is spot on if you read carefully, whatever you make up to hide it, i'll be here as usual. Advice: think, before you make any more.

[Rodion]

I am getting tired of calming this thread down. Please dial back on personal observations regarding your opponent's character. Thank you.

[Falx]

False, and cheap excuse. Fascists project their ideology as do Communists, the nations according to them are failed as far as the ideologies of these systems are concerned.

Which does not change the fact that they can claim a state is a failed state, as well as democrats of all denominations, and as such is not the privy of petty nationalist.

Theirs is not petty nationalism but petty ideologism, yours is petty nationalism and verifiably so, combined with a dose of lying.

nationalism (năsh'ə-nə-lĭz'əm, năsh'nə)
n.
1).Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2).The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3).Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

I guess I'm a nationalist without a nation, which would really make me a humanist. Being a petty humanist I can deal with.

Every person has the right to criticize specific and well-defined activities of foreign nations, as far as the activities THEMSELVES are concerned. A petty nationalist generalizes arbitrarily and bashes other nations A petty nationalist also ignores to address the arguments, lies and produces ad hom's regarding his interlocutor, like yourself.

Ok, regime of the colonels for Greece, Yugo civil wars for everyone else.

Oh yes, the contemporary map of Macedonia of Bulgarian and Yugoslavian fiction. In fact the territory you hold is even less than 0.5% of Macedonia and above all and most importantly percentages aside, you have no exit to the Aegean and pretty Salonica, which is in fact the whole bone of contention among the Balkan states and and not petty percentages.

So exactly what non-fiction should we take as the territory of Macedonia? The empire of Alexander the great? Gee wiz, looks like Iran controls some 4% of that.

And it has nothing to do with the Bulgarian King, but with yourself deeming it unworthy right here and now. The Bulgarian King did not deem it unworthy but far from it, you did.

Unworthy of what exactly? I don't remember saying anything about the unworthiness of Macedonia.

The parable is spot on if you read carefully, whatever you make up to hide it, i'll be here as usual. Advice: think, before you make any more.

No it really isn't, the fox doesn't get any grapes and thinks they are sour, Bulgaria already has a part of Macedonia in its territory and thinks the whole would be very sweet, given policies in the past.

The world has moved on since the 3rd century BC, you have not given your continued use of outdated arguments and allusions.

[noemon]

Ok, regime of the colonels for Greece, Yugo civil wars for everyone else.

So Greece is a fail;ed nation because of the regime of the Colonels?

Repeat:

Every person has the right to criticize specific and well-defined activities of foreign nations, as far as the activities THEMSELVES are concerned.

a) This is not the thread for it.

b) This is not an activity of the nation but of the US, admitted so by the Historical Archives of the US, itself.

c) That was about 50 years ago.

d) You speak of failure, today here and now.

Conclusion:

Utter FAIL.

So exactly what non-fiction should we take as the territory of Macedonia? The empire of Alexander the great? Gee wiz, looks like Iran controls some 4% of that.

That was not the Macedonian Kingdom, but the Kingdom of Hellenes, as Alexander was the Supreme Commander of Hellas and as he used the Hellenic Eagle Flag instead of the Macedonian Sun.

The entity to be accounted for, was the immediately previous Macedonian territory at its greatest extent, that of Phillip, not administrative units, but even if we do account for something, that certainly will not be a map that has no historical basis of any kind, like the one formulated by Bulgarian and Yugoslavian nationalists.

Besides, you just ignored the second and main argument. That petty percentages do not really count that much but strategic posts like Thessalonike, which was in fact the objective of the belligerents.

Unworthy of what exactly? I don't remember saying anything about the unworthiness of Macedonia.

Don't choke on your own straw man. The Aesop fable went for your attitude regarding your neighbors, you, yourself made it an exclusively macedonian issue by mentioning the Bulgarian King.

No it really isn't, the fox doesn't get any grapes and thinks they are sour, Bulgaria already has a part of Macedonia in its territory and thinks the whole would be very sweet, given policies in the past.

Like you got nothing from Balkan War II neither by your second attempt during WWII, and here you enter the thread, by promoting the idea that you should get it, despite the fact that you never had it anytime during your lifetime as a nation.



And later deem the whole area and your neighbors sour and unworthy.

Cant get any more on the spot.

[Falx]

That was not the Macedonian Kingdom, but the Kingdom of Hellenes, as Alexander was the Supreme Commander of Hellas and as he used the Hellenic Eagle Flag instead of the Macedonian Sun.

Rewriting history to suit your needs.

Don't choke on your own straw man. The Aesop fable went for your attitude regarding your neighbors

So not only did you make a straw men for me to use against you now I am choking on it after you forced it down my throat? Right, I got it.

And later deem the whole area and your neighbors sour and unworthy.

I deemed the governments in the area sour and unworthy, I said nothing about the actual neighbors.

Cant get any more on the spot

No I really can't, given how wide and ill defined your spot is neither could Alpha Centauri or the Cygnus spiral arm.

[noemon]

Rewriting history to suit your needs.

Do you seriously deny that Alexander was Supreme Commander(Hegemon(=Leader) of the Hellenic League), and as such he waged his war?

Please point out my historical revisionism to suit my needs. Go on, i challenge you.

So not only did you make a straw men for me to use against you now I am choking on it after you forced it down my throat? Right, I got it.

You made it yourself.

I deemed the governments in the area sour and unworthy, I said nothing about the actual neighbors.

Apparently, someone is confused, or hesitant to accept his mistake:

...along with every other country that has territory on the Balkans.

[Falx]

Do you seriously deny that Alexander was Supreme Commander(Hegemon(=Leader) of the Hellenic League), and as such he waged his war?

I insinuate that you do not see the difference between master and slave in this case. The Hellenic League was a thorn at the side of his father and was only subdued after how many wars?

Please point out my historical revisionism to suit my needs. Go on, i challenge you.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Philip_II_Of_Macedonia

...along with every other country that has territory on the Balkans.

Failed State:
A failed state is a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state
I have said nothing about the people of the said countries.

[noemon]

I insinuate that you do not see the difference between master and slave in this case. The Hellenic League was a thorn at the side of his father and was only subdued after how many wars?

You explicitly argued regarding the map, and the officialdom of the Empire but sorry to break it down for you, but officially, whether you like it or not, Alexander represented the state entity of the Hellenic League as its Commander. Whether you see it as a thorn is irrelevant.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Philip_II_Of_Macedonia

You are only verifying my point, that this was in fact a politically autonomous entity, unlike another map of something else, and when we talk about Macedonian(capitalized) borders, we talk about these borders. Not of Alexanders Empire, not of the Roman administrative units, and not of fictional maps fabricated in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.

I have said nothing about the people of the said countries.

In political geography and international politics, a country is a political division of a geographical entity. Frequently, but not exclusively, a sovereign territory, the term is most commonly associated with the notions of both state and nation, and also with government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country

You explicitly used the term "country".

[Rodion]

Thread purged. Flame wars, petty semantic arguments and dissent will not be tolerated. See Forum Rules and the Newbie Guide.

Please refrain from off-topic squabbling and character assassination. In the future, offending posts will be deleted entirely.

If anybody has a problem with the way things are run, take it to The Basement or send a private message to Siberian Fox.

Thank you and have a nice day.

[Anor]

Think i am a bit late now, as it seems that the topic has turned again.

Let me set some things here, as to be able to sum some things up.

1. Macedonia... the term comes from the Greek word "ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ" (hope you can see the fonts here) , which has the explanation leading to "land of tall men". This is stated in ancient scriptures by Herodotos.

Findings of that era are in Greek scriptures which are not limited only to Greek land, but also to todays Iran land, where a Persian ceramic plate, dated to 513b.C. had a script, saying "Yuna Takabara". Takabara stands for helmet similar to shield. Yuna now means Iones, which was the first Greek race , living in the area of Greece and at the shores of Little Asia. In other words, Persians recognized Alexandros and Macedonia as Greeks.. or better said Hellines.

Now Plutarchos says:

" Αλέξανδρος, παίδας Περσών τρισμυρίους επιλεξάμενος, εκέλευσε γράμματά τε μανθάνειν Ελληνικά και Μακεδονικοίς όπλοις εντρέφεσθαi"

Excuse me for the Greek fonts, but this is ancient languange and as such is placed here. The phrase means that Alexandros took 30.000 Persian children and commanded that they should have Greek education and how to handle the Macedonian arms. Please be notified that each area in Greece had their own kind of weapons (e.g Sparta had the little sword , Athens had unique armors and so on).

There is not an evidence what so ever , no ancient finding or anything else that would even give a doubt that Philippos, Alexandros and Macedonia had something to do with Slavic nations (later decented on the area and educated by the monks send by Byzantium... Kyrillos and Methodios. Both born in Byzantium and founders of the Slavic languange as we know it today.

Both were send after request by Slavic King Rostislav in 863 a.D. to Michael the third , emperor of Byzantium. Both born and raised in Thessaloniki.

So in so many words, there was absolutely no way for the area of Macedonia to have any Slavic origin, in ancient times. It had a Hellenic culture, Hellenic society structure and education and at a point the representation of the whole Hellenic cities on both military and leadership level (even if that had to be done via force,... there is an explanation for this of course , but this is not the place to do it).

2. Today there is an ongoing dispute about the modern history of the area that has approach to the Aegean sea. This is why since Balkan wars to todays events, most of the countries ,which have borders to Greece , want to establish some kind of historical presence in the area as to have foundations for LAND CLAIMING... Cause this is the main case. Name dispute is only the mean to do it.

If a country manages to establish physical presence in History in that area, through name or other wat , then they have a foundation to claim even more.

This is why there is so much going on about this.

FYROM, Albania, Turkey, Bulgaria, are all presenting public maps and claims over the area (including Thesaloniki many times) although historically their arguments do not stand. Turkey has Rhodes and some more islands , along with Western Thrace.

It is like in US where Texas was a dispute issue with Mexico. Or in UK with N.Ireland. It has nothing to do with names and historical facts as the main case. It is simply an imperialistic look , presented in such way as to seem like a minor incident claiming a name.. which in some years will follow with land claimings.

This is why it is important and it is not of minor value.


it has everything to do though with land, mineral wealth, sea ways to get to the Mediteranean and so on.


Anor

[noemon]

Anor, thank you for your comments regarding my person.

I would just like to point somethings out.

Only the simple fact mentioned above that Alexander was officially the Leader of the Hellenic League, being a state entity on its own right, is enough to cover the historical side of this subject in a sentence, since wide and deep historical arguments should generally be confined in the History department of the forum.

Also, establishing the land claims is directly illustrated by the map of the PM already posted, and by the fact that eccentric billionaire George Soros, is openly a patron of FYROM, just like he was Albania's paramilitary organizations right before and during the Kossovo Crisis.

His foundation has been caught forging and plagiarizing documents as you can see in this thread, promoting nationalist and irredentist politicians in FYROM as well as collaborating with Greeces' Skopjian political party Rainbow in order to extradite Greece for a minority question that the League of Nations settled 80 years ago.

[Independent_Srpska]

Couple of days ago Skopje government recognized Serbian breakaway province Kosmet (Kosovo) .....today the NATO province of Kosmet recognized FYROM under the name "Makedonia" ....

However, it is weird and disgusting to see a rapid ''macedonization" of FYROM...Supposedly the names of the streets in town's of FYROM are going to be named by the classical heroes from the Greek history/mythology....I believe the airport in Skopje have been already renamed in "Alexander the Great"....It's so unnatural....

[Anor]

for the time being the name "Republic of North Macedonia" is on the table , along with several other things arround the name. Both parties seem to think it over, but there are a lot of issues to be solved on this discussion.

Anor.

[Hellenic]

Here's a good-written article I read recently in the American Chronicle regarding the naming-dispute between Greece and Skopje. I guess it expresses the official Greek policy on that issue.

October 13, 2008, American Chronicle.
Nicolas Mottas.

In June 2003 the EU-Western Balkans Summit in Halkidiki, northern Greece, set a significant aim: the perspicuous committment of Brussels to offer any possible and reasonable assistance to the states of South Eastern Europe, fortifying their European perspective (Article 2, Thessaloniki Declaration). The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) was among these states which obtained EU's solemn undertaking that Skopje will be accepted in the European family when specific conditions will be fully met. Greece has expressed its articulate will to welcome FYROM in the EU, but with the straighforward prerequisite that there will be a commonly-accepted solution in the naming-dispute. No solution means no invitation and that was absolutely clear from the very start, something which was confirmed during the NATO Enlargement in April 2008.

Contrary to FYROM, Greece and the European Union kept their promise so far. In March 2004, the EU allocated, from the budget managed by the European Agency for Reconstruction, a budget of 173 million euro to the FYROM for the period 2001-2004. In April 2005, the Commission approved a 34.5 million euro CARDS aid package, while on December 17, 2005, the European Council decided to grant candidate status to Skopje. From its side, Greece has provided quite important economic aid to FYROM since 2003, through the Greek Plan for the Economic Reconstruction of the Balkans (2002-2006), a program elaborated by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which has been sustained until 2011. During the period 2002-2006, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia received from Athens a total of 60 million euro for public construction works.

So, did Skopje actually aknowledge the above moves of good will by the Greek side? The answer is, unfotunately, negative. The government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has failed so far to recognize and reciprocate Greece's aid. And, moreover, violated the provisions of the 1995 UN-observed Interim Accord. For example, in Article 7, paragraph 1, of that agreement between Greece and FYROM there is an unambiguous reference to each party's responsibility to "take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda...". Nonetheless, the hard-core nationalistic voices in Skopje have been proved immovable, still remaining in their settled position of provoking Greece through nonsensical chauvinist idle wishes (the article of the Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC), published here in the American Chronicle, gives a good description of the Slav-Macedonian nationalism). The smouldering chauvinism of Skopje is covered behild the use of the name "Macedonia" and of ancient Greek symbols. But, actually, they look like an elephant who tries to cover himself behind a small bush. Its about time for them to understand it, as soon as possible.

Greece is committed to the European perspective of FYROM - and will continue to be an unwavering supporter of that aim. Because the purpose is the stabilization of FYROM's state entity and its progress, within a consistent environment of peace and security in South Eastern Europe. But that definitely preoccupates Skopje's understanding and actions of good will, towards a commonly-accepted solution in the naming-dispute. However, until now, what we have seen is only FYROM's very negative stance which therefore moves Skopje out of its European route, throwing to the litter bin a great opportunity. The opportunity to secure its future within the EU family.

Source: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/77435

THANK YOU MATE! BRAVO!