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By Cromwell
#14452283
Let me first say that I could've titled this thread 'Anti-Liberal Communism' or 'Illiberal Communism' and it would, probably, have made as much sense. My thoughts are a little all over the place but I think I've now managed to get a good enough hold of them to make this thread (one I've been hoping to make for quite some time now).

I'll first just put forward some fairly disconnected ideas which will, hopefully, outline my wider world-view insofar as it differs from the standard left-wing world-view. I'm not writing this with the intent of convincing the Marxists on this board to come over to my thinking (especially as it is based, to at least some degree, on my personal prejudices and circumstances), but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't looking for some kind of approval.

Here goes:

Mass immigration is a tool of international capitalism to suppress wages, provoke internal proletarian conflict and loosen the labour market. Anyone who believes otherwise needn't respond to this thread.

It is on the subject of multiculturalism where I aim to make a serious contention. I belief that, contrary to the language it dresses itself up in, it is the enemy of diversity. Global diversity is achieved by the allowance of all national cultures to thrive within their boundaries. The doctrine of the free movement of people (code for the free use of wage suppressants) coupled with state-enforced multiculturalism achieves the exact opposite; followed to its logical conclusion, cultural life would be the same across all countries.

...

Nationality is a social fact. In the words of Mikhail Bakunin, "Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."

I am totally against the anti-nationalist mentality, which seeks either to intermix nations and cultures to such a degree that inter-ethnic conflict becomes inevitable and devastating or to subjugate all of humanity to a one world authority and a one world culture.

...

The liberal ideology, specifically as expressed in America, is fundamentally racist. Race-based affirmative action in places of education, most glaringly, is predicated on an anti-Marxist assumption; that men are not divided by class and all start from the same position, only that social authorities are biased against blacks. Non-white members of the bourgeois are considered oppressed but white members of the proletariat are not.

The mantra, the value of which I do not question, of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" must not be degraded either to satisfy white racial guilt or black racial interest. If, under socialism, performance differences are shown to exist between the races, it must not be assumed that the evil white man is at fault, any more than it must be assumed that the evil Asian or the evil Jew are.

...

There is nothing about the communist ideology which makes judgement on cultural values; it is an economic philosophy, at its core. As such, even if a unified international authority was ever formed, it needn't homogenise all cultures or impeach upon the right of every nation to self-determination.
By annatar1914
#14452285
Very interesting, i'm intrigued by what you've wrote so far. I'm still subject to National Bolshevism I guess, and adhere to what one once said about 'every nation having it's own socialism'.
By Conscript
#14452293
Communism allows freedom of movement and would abolish all national borders, calling it illiberal (which it already is) doesn't change this. The right to national self-determination has nothing to do providing nationals state-mandated monopolies on work. You either have a commonly-held society or a national one.

Whatever problems you have with globalization you're going to have with communism.

What you're espousing sounds a lot more like national syndicalism, left wing nationalism, or some other established reactionary 'socialism'. No need to bring up Marx or communism, really.
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By Cromwell
#14452297
Conscript wrote:Communism allows freedom of movement and would abolish all national borders, calling it illiberal (which it already is) doesn't change this. The right to national self-determination has nothing to do providing nationals state-mandated monopolies on work. You either have a commonly-held society or a national one.

Whatever problems you have with globalization you're going to have with communism.

What you're espousing sounds a lot more like national syndicalism, left wing nationalism, or some other established reactionary 'socialism'. No need to bring up Marx or communism, really.


What utter nonsense. National self-determination has everything to do with border control; the composition of a nation is its own right to determine. What is your definition of national self-determination?
#14452379
The concept of the nation itself is bourgouis.

To be promoting the demonstratably false notion that nations have always existed, and then tying that into a promotion of an internationalist where that recognizes the progressive potentials of bringing the Earth together in its very manifesto...that's some serious cherry picking.
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By Cromwell
#14452572
The Immortal Goon wrote:The concept of the nation itself is bourgouis.


Okay, this is nonsense. The working class have just as much of a national feeling as anyone else; it seems strange that someone who professes such a sense of belonging to the Irish (a nation), such as yourself, would dispute this. Nationality exists insofar as nations exist. For example, the English nation will exist for as long as a significant number of people continue to identify as English.

Since the above is, essentially, a cultural judgement (rather than an economic one), it is meaningless to make anti-nationalism a tenet of Marxism; not least because it alienates a portion of the working class for whom national identity is important.

To be promoting the demonstratably false notion that nations have always existed, and then tying that into a promotion of an internationalist where that recognizes the progressive potentials of bringing the Earth together in its very manifesto...that's some serious cherry picking.


"Proletarians of all countries, unite!" is not, at all, translatable as an anti-nationalist message. To paraphrase S.G. Hobson, internationalism presupposes nationalism. You cannot call for international solidarity with, for example, the Palestinians if you refuse to believe that the Palestinian nation should continue to exist.

I know, of course, that the above example might be a little tricky for you; you seem to believe that national identity is very respectable only insofar as it is expressed by historically oppressed people.
By annatar1914
#14452735
Cromwell, you're talking to mainly Trotskyites here about this, I wouldn't expect any less from them than to disagree. A Stalinist or National Bolshevik on the other hand....

And I'd say that the Okhrana didn't miscalculate so bad with Lenin and especially Stalin, I think.
#14452755
Bah, there's nobody on this site right now that claims to be a Trotskyist. Though most of the Stalinists will be quick to jump to Trotsky in order to justify their own claims. But they do this because Trotsky was correct about some things and Marxists follow what is true instead of what they imagine to be convenient.

Nationalism, itself, is reliant upon the capitalist mode of production. That is why people, whatever the class , identify a form of nationalism when in capitalism.

For instance, your French peasant of the 12th century had no national identity as we would recognize it today. Even speaking a French dialect (which may not have been the case in much of France at the time) would be considered hopelessly crude. The masters spoke Latin and Greek as universal tongues; they maintained the property for their lords, who maintained the system for the king. The king, nominally the owner (and part of) the land, forever pressing out in hopes of becoming an Augustus. It wasn't even until after the Thirty Year War that agreements were made to recognize the legitimacy of borders and sovereign laws and customs within said borders

The internationalist platform of the communist is not merely sentimental. It is the acknowledgement of reality and the celebration of progress. For while capitalism has facilitated the creation of nationality, it also creates the conditions for the negation of this negation of feudalism:

Marx and Engels wrote:The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.


And in this negation, the international class of the proletariat spread their wings and their own system comes with them. They, as is reality, negate themselves and class itself is liquidated. The sequence of events that started with the Neolithic itself is negated and history as we know it ceases to be because class conflict and antagonism has come to an end.

This cannot occur while clinging blindly to outdated conceptions of nationality invented for the sake of trade pacts and bourgouis imperialism.
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By Cromwell
#14452806
The Immortal Goon wrote:This cannot occur while clinging blindly to outdated conceptions of nationality invented for the sake of trade pacts and bourgouis imperialism.


I note that you've refuse to address the issue of the Irish and the Palestinians specifically.

Anyway:

Nationality exists as a social and cultural fact. Nothing you've said has changed that. Capitalism has taken on an international character, yet nationalities persist. The reason being, yet again, that internationalism presupposes nationalism. Cultural diversity would not be ended by socialism for the same reason that it has not been ended by capitalism.

It is, ultimately, a matter of identity. Unless you suggest violent totalitarianism to purge any expression of unique cultural identities, why do you have any reason to force questions of identity into Marxist theory?

I believe that (and I'd like you to dispute a principle even upheld by Lenin) all nations should be granted the right of self-determination.
#14452813
Cromwell wrote:
Nationality is a social fact. In the words of Mikhail Bakunin, "Nationality. . . is a historic, local fact which, like all real and harmless facts, has the right to claim general acceptance. . . Every people, like every person, is involuntarily that which it is and therefore has a right to be itself. . . Nationality is not a principle; it is a legitimate fact, just as individuality is. Every nationality, great or small, has the incontestable right to be itself, to live according to its own nature. This right is simply the corollary of the general principle of freedom."

I am totally against the anti-nationalist mentality, which seeks either to intermix nations and cultures to such a degree that inter-ethnic conflict becomes inevitable and devastating or to subjugate all of humanity to a one world authority and a one world culture.



There is truth to this proposition.

But another equally 'real and harmless' fact is that cultures are not static, nor are they impermeable. National cultures are not pre-ordained nor set in stone, but by their very nature evolve both from within and from without. There is a balance between cultural stagnation and cultural dissolution, which is not sufficiently recognized by either liberalism or its critics.
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By ComradeTim
#14452824
I take it that the type of Communism you refer to vis a vis "National Communism" is Marxist Communism as you spoke of converting Marxists? Only you also quoted Bakunin as well so you can understand the confusion.
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By Cromwell
#14452826
ComradeTim wrote:I take it that the type of Communism you refer to vis a vis "National Communism" is Marxist Communism as you spoke of converting Marxists? Only you also quoted Bakunin as well so you can understand the confusion.


Yes, I might also describe it as "National Marxism". I quoted Bakunin specifically for his thoughts on nationality, hoping to inject them into the Marxist stream of thought.
#14452829
Cromwell wrote:I note that you've refuse to address the issue of the Irish and the Palestinians specifically.


I didn't refuse, I just thought they became redundant questions in light of my post. But if I must...

Cromwell wrote:Okay, this is nonsense. The working class have just as much of a national feeling as anyone else; it seems strange that someone who professes such a sense of belonging to the Irish (a nation), such as yourself, would dispute this.


James Connolly wrote:The one thing certain about it is that no sensible man can take a pride in being born an Irishman. What had he to do with it that he should be proud?

He did not carefully sketch out beforehand the location in which he desired to be born, and then instruct his mother accordingly. Whether he was born in Ireland or in Zululand, in the Coombe or in Whitechapel, he most certainly was not consulted about the matter. Why then, this pride?

The location of your birthplace was a mere accident – as much beyond your control as the fact I was born so beautiful was beyond mine. Hem.

And you don’t see me putting on airs.


That's about it. In the current construction of things, I'm Irish at this place and at this moment. When I leave the US, I'm no longer Irish because in my time and place it presupposed an American citizenship. I become a Yank when leaving Stateside. Also when leaving Stateside, I lose the identity as an Oregonian—something that means something within a place and context, but means nothing to 99% of the planet. Within Oregon, I'm a Western Oregonian—the Cascades divide the state and there is a distinction here; I am a local to the metro area, but ultimately a coasty to people in the area. This designation loses meaning when back on the coast, where I am now judged by county. From within the county it's the city that matters. These are all parts of my identity that I had nothing to do with, that contradict each other wildly, and yet are there.

Under your construction of things, it means everything. But it clearly doesn't. Like all forms of nationalism, it is a construction used to group things within a context. Doesn't mean much of anything.

Cromwell wrote:You cannot call for international solidarity with, for example, the Palestinians if you refuse to believe that the Palestinian nation should continue to exist.


This is naive thinking. The Palestinian people exist, at this moment, because the world is ordered in a bourgeois way that has us think in such a way. Freedom for Palestine, however, has remained elusive exactly because there are attempts to create a nationalist movement cohesive with bourgeois imperialism, instead of an attempt to end it. The only way their lot is going to improve dramatically is to overthrow the entire system itself and break the roots of both medievalist and imperialistic tyranny that wrap around them. This does not mean putting on the imperialistic cloak and trying to be a good nation living at the hand of the imperialist...But at least they'll have their flags!

The only solution is international.

Cromwell wrote:I believe that (and I'd like you to dispute a principle even upheld by Lenin) all nations should be granted the right of self-determination.


Why would you want me to dispute Lenin? He pretty much sums up Palestine exactly as I see it:

Lenin wrote:We know that in the East the masses will rise as independent participants, as builders of a new life, because hundreds of millions of the people belong to dependent, underprivileged nations, which until now have been objects of international imperialist policy, and have only existed as material to fertilise capitalist culture and civilisation. And when they talk of handing out mandates for colonies, we know very well that it means handing out mandates for spoliation and plunder-handing out to an insignificant section of the world’s population the right to exploit the majority of the population of the globe. That majority, which up till then had been completely outside the orbit of historical progress, because it could not constitute an independent revolutionary force, ceased, as we know, to play such a passive role at the beginning of the twentieth century. We know that 1905 was followed by revolutions in Turkey, Persia and China, and that a revolutionary movement developed in India. The imperialist war likewise contributed to the growth of the revolutionary movement, because the European imperialists had to enlist whole colonial regiments in their struggle. The imperialist war aroused the East also and drew its peoples into international politics. Britain and France armed colonial peoples and helped them to familiarise themselves with military technique and up-todate machines. That knowledge they will use against the imperialist gentry. The period of the awakening of the East in the contemporary revolution is being succeeded by a period in which all the Eastern peoples will participate in deciding the destiny of the whole world, so as not to be simply objects of the enrichment of others. The peoples of the East are becoming alive to the need for practical action, the need for every nation to take part in shaping the destiny of all mankind...

In this respect you are confronted with a task which has not previously confronted the Communists of the world: relying upon the general theory and practice of communism, you must adapt yourselves to specific conditions such as do not exist in the European countries; you must be able to apply that theory and practice to conditions in which the bulk of the population are peasants, and in which the task is to wage a struggle against medieval survivals and not against capitalism. That is a difficult and specific task, but a very thankful one, because masses that have taken no part in the struggle up to now are being drawn into it, and also because the organisation of communist cells in the East gives you an opportunity to maintain the closest contact with the Third International. You must find specific forms for this alliance of the foremost proletarians of the world with the labouring and exploited masses of the East whose conditions are in many cases medieval. We have accomplished on a small scale in our country what you will do on a big scale and in big countries. And that latter task you will, I hope, perform with success. Thanks to the communist organisations in the East, of which you here are the represelitatives, you have contact with the advanced revolutionary proletariat. Your task is to continue to ensure that communist propaganda is carried on in every country in a language the people understand.

It is self-evident that final victory can be won only by the proletariat of all the advanced countries of the world, and we, the Russians, are beginning the work which the British, French or German proletariat will consolidate. But we see that they will not be victorious without the aid of the working people of all the oppressed colonial nations, first and foremost, of Eastern nations.


Or, if that's a little technical, here's Connolly's most famous quote to the same:

Connolly wrote:If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.

England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed.

Nationalism without Socialism – without a reorganisation of society on the basis of a broader and more developed form of that common property which underlay the social structure of Ancient Erin - is only national recreancy.

It would be tantamount to a public declaration that our oppressors had so far succeeded in inoculating us with their perverted conceptions of justice and morality that we had finally decided to accept those conceptions as our own, and no longer needed an alien army to force them upon us.

As a Socialist I am prepared to do all one man can do to achieve for our motherland her rightful heritage – independence; but if you ask me to abate one jot or tittle of the claims of social justice, in order to conciliate the privileged classes, then I must decline.


The issue of self-determination is pretty useless unless it's tied to a concept of economic revolution. And this economic revolution is international and itself the cause of the problems, including nationalism.

It is true that independence movements generally strike a blow against imperialism, but look in despair at—say—Vietnam's gallant efforts to remove themselves from the imperialist thumb. They got their own flags, but they're sewing extra-sized trousers for the Americans that path them a cent an hour for their children's labour.

Nationalism as an end to itself, or as an end at all, leads to a tacit endorsement of imperialism.
#14452853
The Immortal Goon wrote:Nationalism as an end to itself, or as an end at all, leads to a tacit endorsement of imperialism.


There's something not quite clear to me. Imperialism is a form of top-down imposed culture. A freely, or at least organically, evolved culture will tend to associate in tribes first, and then widen this to extended language/culture/geographic association. This is what I tend to think of as culture. Are you saying this type of culture is not a legitimate basis for a nation, or just that nations should not exist at all?
#14453139
I'm saying that culture, as we understand it, is a result of our interaction with the physical world. To promote your individual culture, and not address the overthrow of the economic reality of your situation, just means some poor Vietnamese kid in a sweatshop will be producing the flags of your country to go above the imperialist's corporate HQ in your capitol.

Cromwell alluded to international labor being used to exploit the local working class. Fair enough, but the solution proposed is upon it's head. The bourgeoisie already maintains itself as an international class even if it's organically national. No corporate CEO has immigration watching him when be goes abroad to do business. On the contrary, usually everyone bends over backward to make him as comfortable as possible.

This is an accomplished fact in the way the world has existed since at least the 1700s.

To try and roll the clock back to some imaginary time when this wasn't the case is pure hackery. To go further and assign communism, which is, "the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat," the roll of continuing to limit the movement and curtail the freedom of the working class is an absurdity.

To free the working class, you must free it and allow it to move.
By Rich
#14453219
it is not just a matter of identity. Ordinary White working people gained enormously from the racist colonisation of the United States Australia and others. Wages were much higher in North America than in Britain or Ireland during the early nineteenth century. The was because Europe was so resource hungry back then. I would also argue that slavery and the later Apartheid systems of South Africa and Rhodesia gave huge opportunities for working class Whites. A lot is often made of the fact that only a minority of Southern American Whites owned slaves. This doesn't mean there wasn't huge opportunities for White working class people in slave societies if they took advantage of them. Many of the poorer earlier settlers moved up the social hierarchy over the generations.

In modern Britain working class people are disadvantaged by immigration, not because of wage competition as commonly thought but in particularly because the of land shortages and the effect it has on housing costs. Where population levels are low, working class people can gain from immigration combined with harsh racism. South Africa has already been mentioned, but in America immigration of lower status groups could allow upward mobility of the higher status working class particularly when combined with severe prejudice forcing immigrants to stay in the poorly paid undesirable jobs.

The case is less clear cut with the Nazis, but if the Soviet Union had collapsed in the Summer of 41 as Hitler hoped and many observers expected, German workers could have done very well out of the new settlement. In Israel working class Israelis benefit greatly from Israel's racist polocies, assuming they're not suicidal altruists they'd have to be barking mad to give equality to the Palestinians.
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By Cromwell
#14455754
quetzalcoatl wrote:
There is truth to this proposition.

But another equally 'real and harmless' fact is that cultures are not static, nor are they impermeable. National cultures are not pre-ordained nor set in stone, but by their very nature evolve both from within and from without. There is a balance between cultural stagnation and cultural dissolution, which is not sufficiently recognized by either liberalism or its critics.


I'm not a cultural conservative. I'm a nationalist, in the sense that I believe nationalities should be preserved (how they express themselves, and how they develop, is of little concern). I am against the present arrangement only because the English people were not consulted on the cultural future of their country, it was decided for them (by the international ruling class) that Britain would become a multiracial and multicultural society.

The Immortal Goon wrote:I didn't refuse, I just thought they became redundant questions in light of my post. But if I must... Connolly Quote
That's about it. In the current construction of things, I'm Irish at this place and at this moment. When I leave the US, I'm no longer Irish because in my time and place it presupposed an American citizenship. I become a Yank when leaving Stateside. Also when leaving Stateside, I lose the identity as an Oregonian—something that means something within a place and context, but means nothing to 99% of the planet. Within Oregon, I'm a Western Oregonian—the Cascades divide the state and there is a distinction here; I am a local to the metro area, but ultimately a coasty to people in the area. This designation loses meaning when back on the coast, where I am now judged by county. From within the county it's the city that matters. These are all parts of my identity that I had nothing to do with, that contradict each other wildly, and yet are there.

Under your construction of things, it means everything. But it clearly doesn't. Like all forms of nationalism, it is a construction used to group things within a context. Doesn't mean much of anything.


Except nationality has much more to with self-identity than you are letting on. It has much more to do with heritage than geography also; under your construction of things, any Irish who left their homeland for the United States would have ceased to be Irish and, therefore, you wouldn't be Irish.

In fact, the whole American situation (of English-Americans, Italian-Americans and African-Americans) shows up your statement as, essentially, untrue.

This is naive thinking. The Palestinian people exist, at this moment, because the world is ordered in a bourgeois way that has us think in such a way. Freedom for Palestine, however, has remained elusive exactly because there are attempts to create a nationalist movement cohesive with bourgeois imperialism, instead of an attempt to end it. The only way their lot is going to improve dramatically is to overthrow the entire system itself and break the roots of both medievalist and imperialistic tyranny that wrap around them. This does not mean putting on the imperialistic cloak and trying to be a good nation living at the hand of the imperialist...But at least they'll have their flags!

The only solution is international.


Those two things aren't mutually exclusive and, the silly thing is, you know that. James Connolly died fighting for the national liberation of Ireland. The overthrow of capitalism can be tied to the national struggle quite easily; the end-result can be imagined to be a Socialist Republic.

Why would you want me to dispute Lenin?


Because what he's saying doesn't jive with what you're saying. I'm saying that nationalism can be reconciled with socialism, he's saying it should be, and you're saying it can't be; you're saying that nationality as concept, furthermore, should be destroyed. Am I right in presuming you'd endorse totalitarianism in order to achieve your goal if, shock-horror, distinct nationalities persisted under socialism?

The issue of self-determination is pretty useless unless it's tied to a concept of economic revolution. And this economic revolution is international and itself the cause of the problems, including nationalism.


The title of this thread (I wrote it myself) is: National Communism. If I was only interested in the nationalism, divorced from revolutionary politics, I'd join the BNP.

It is true that independence movements generally strike a blow against imperialism, but look in despair at—say—Vietnam's gallant efforts to remove themselves from the imperialist thumb. They got their own flags, but they're sewing extra-sized trousers for the Americans that path them a cent an hour for their children's labour.


So what? Should the Vietnamese be denied their national identity as revenge for failing to overthrow a global system?

Nationalism as an end to itself, or as an end at all, leads to a tacit endorsement of imperialism.


Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Imperialism is anti-nationalist by its very definition.
#14455919
Cromwell wrote:Except nationality has much more to with self-identity than you are letting on. It has much more to do with heritage than geography also; under your construction of things, any Irish who left their homeland for the United States would have ceased to be Irish and, therefore, you wouldn't be Irish.


It's contextual though. It isn't something that exists independently upon itself.

Cromwell wrote:Those two things aren't mutually exclusive and, the silly thing is, you know that. James Connolly died fighting for the national liberation of Ireland.


1. James Connolly was not Irish
2. He explicitly would not recognize Ireland as being independent since it is capitalist

Cromwell wrote:The overthrow of capitalism can be tied to the national struggle quite easily; the end-result can be imagined to be a Socialist Republic.


Socialism is an international system. It can be socialist in rhetoric and direction, but a single country cannot be socialist:

Engels wrote:Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?

No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.


Cromwell wrote:Because what he's saying doesn't jive with what you're saying. I'm saying that nationalism can be reconciled with socialism, he's saying it should be, and you're saying it can't be


False.

Lenin wrote:Hence, the socialist revolution will not be solely, or chiefly, a struggle of the revolutionary proletarians in each country against their bourgeoisie-no, it will be a struggle of all the imperialist-oppressed colonies and countries, of all dependent countries, against international imperialism. Characterising the approach of the world social revolution in the Party Programme we adopted last March, we said that the civil war of the working people against the imperialists and exploiters in all the advanced countries is beginning to be combined with national wars against international imperialism. That is confirmed by the course of the revolution, and will be more and more confirmed as time goes on. It will be the same in the East.

It is self-evident that final victory can be won only by the proletariat of all the advanced countries of the world, and we, the Russians, are beginning the work which the British, French or German proletariat will consolidate. But we see that they will not be victorious without the aid of the working people of all the oppressed colonial nations, first and foremost, of Eastern nations. We must realise that the transition to communism cannot be accomplished by the vanguard alone. The task is to arouse the working masses to revolutionary activity, to independent action and to organisation, regardless of the level they have reached; to translate the true communist doctrine, which was intended for the Communists of the more advanced countries, into the language of every people; to carry out those practical tasks which must be carried out immediately, and to join the proletarians of other countries in a common struggle.


Cromwell wrote:you're saying that nationality as concept, furthermore, should be destroyed. Am I right in presuming you'd endorse totalitarianism in order to achieve your goal if, shock-horror, distinct nationalities persisted under socialism?


I would certainly endorse the totalitarian rule of the international proletariat over pockets of luddites and witch-doctors that tried to crawl backward into a past that never existed in the first place.

But, "nationalities," would probably still exist in the same way geographic distinctions of areas would exist. The difference between someone from, say, California and Nevada. It wouldn't be bourgeois nationalism, but a geographic reality.

Cromwell wrote:The title of this thread (I wrote it myself) is: National Communism. If I was only interested in the nationalism, divorced from revolutionary politics, I'd join the BNP.


I have no problem with the communist part of the program. The "national," part is like insisting on taking horse drawn carriages into space.

Cromwell wrote:So what? Should the Vietnamese be denied their national identity as revenge for failing to overthrow a global system?


Why would I want that? Their nationalist program, however, wasn't effective in keeping the capitalists and imperialists out.

Cromwell wrote:Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Imperialism is anti-nationalist by its very definition.


Unless you're the imperialist or fighting for an international system created by the imperialists. Don't forget how much it benefits the imperialist to carve the world into separate countries with different labour and environmental standards and whatnot. Decolonization didn't happen because the British and French, armed with nukes, couldn't fight people with AK-47s. It happened because it became increasingly useless to bother fighting the natives when you could let them throw up their little flag and then hire their children to make a bunch of worthless junk for your amusement for a penny a day.
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By Cromwell
#14463305
Nationality is a matter of identity. Cultural changes are neither a prerequisite or consequence of economic revolution. Why, can someone please tell me, is the destruction of our separate national cultures considered necessary for the development of socialism?

I'll, of course, concede that socialism must achieved through international action but it speaks more to my suggestion that the national and social struggle must be combined. "Internationalism presupposes nationalism." - S.G. Hobson

The working class shows, time and time again, that it is unwilling to forsake its national feeling; the left loses ground the more it tries to shame them for it.

Immigration is a tool of the international bourgeoisie and the left will, most times, tacitly admit this all the while decrying the rise of an anti-immigration sentiment amongst the working class. It is time for communists to tap into the frustrations of the class they are supposed to represent and use it to bolster support for the socialist project.

Why is it that nationalist movements often carry with them a left-wing economic programme? It's because the working class also posses a natural socialist disposition as well as a nationalist one. Even the UK Independence Party, originally an ultra-conservative outfit in its economic thought, now stays relatively quiet on financial matters as its growing membership of working class nationalists trends leftward on such issues (see here).
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Cromwell wrote:Why, can someone please tell me, is the destruction of our separate national cultures considered necessary for the development of socialism?


Because socialism is the synthesis of a thesis and anti-thesis that exists today in capitalism. And capitalism destroys, "our separate national cultures:"

Marx and Engels wrote:The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment”. It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom — Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers.

The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and has reduced the family relation to a mere money relation.

The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.

The bourgeoisie has subjected the country to the rule of the towns. It has created enormous cities, has greatly increased the urban population as compared with the rural, and has thus rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life. Just as it has made the country dependent on the towns, so it has made barbarian and semi-barbarian countries dependent on the civilised ones, nations of peasants on nations of bourgeois, the East on the West.

The bourgeoisie keeps more and more doing away with the scattered state of the population, of the means of production, and of property. It has agglomerated population, centralised the means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments, and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class-interest, one frontier, and one customs-tariff.

The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?

We see then: the means of production and of exchange, on whose foundation the bourgeoisie built itself up, were generated in feudal society. At a certain stage in the development of these means of production and of exchange, the conditions under which feudal society produced and exchanged, the feudal organisation of agriculture and manufacturing industry, in one word, the feudal relations of property became no longer compatible with the already developed productive forces; they became so many fetters. They had to be burst asunder; they were burst asunder.

Into their place stepped free competition, accompanied by a social and political constitution adapted in it, and the economic and political sway of the bourgeois class.

A similar movement is going on before our own eyes. Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells. For many a decade past the history of industry and commerce is but the history of the revolt of modern productive forces against modern conditions of production, against the property relations that are the conditions for the existence of the bourgeois and of its rule. It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly. In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed. In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity — the epidemic of over-production. Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed; and why? Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.

The weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself.

But not only has the bourgeoisie forged the weapons that bring death to itself; it has also called into existence the men who are to wield those weapons — the modern working class — the proletarians.


It is, in essence, a material conception of reality that destroys these separate cultures as they begin to interpret the world as the same. An Indian before the arrival of the British saw land as feudal. The British overthrew the old order. While it cause famine and destroyed much of what was in India, it also brought India to progress into a new uneven and combined development, differing from the Silk Roads of feudalism that had existed before.

It is only in this action, in the recognition and use of the combined portion of that development—that the proletariat created by said development can move forward.

The fact that India lost a lot of culture isn't a good or a bad thing. There is no morality above material reality. It simply happened, and it's something with which we must live because there is no alternative from reality.

Cromwell wrote:The working class shows, time and time again, that it is unwilling to forsake its national feeling; the left loses ground the more it tries to shame them for it.

Immigration is a tool of the international bourgeoisie and the left will, most times, tacitly admit this all the while decrying the rise of an anti-immigration sentiment amongst the working class. It is time for communists to tap into the frustrations of the class they are supposed to represent and use it to bolster support for the socialist project.


It is true that the more nationalistic ground often wins. And this is our fault on the left, as much as anything. But it doesn't always win. The Knights of Labour in the United States tended to beat out the IWW in making unions for workers. But what has it accomplished in doing so?

The heirs to the Knights of Labour divided their working class within country and beyond. Where the IWW would have demanded a unity between Mexican and American workers (for instance) the current Trade organizations are reduced to getting on to bended knee and begging their bosses not to send more jobs to Mexicans that will do it cheaper, with less safety, and with less environmental regulation. In demanding a national feeling, the AFL-CIO and other organizations actually gave everything to workers in Central America, Asia, and everywhere else. Doing more of the same isn't going to solve a damned thing, because reality exists.

Had the IWW model won out over the KoL, things may have been different. But keeping these lines drawn up for us by our masters and demanding that they mean something when they don't, has harmed the movement far more than ever helped it.

I am, these days, far more armchair that I used to be. And, honestly, so is a lot of the working class. This is something that can be explained. Relying on jingoism to become the biggest of rodents scouring for the scraps left by our masters is not a plan for ending the exploitation. We must overthrow the masters together.

Why is it that nationalist movements often carry with them a left-wing economic programme? It's because the working class also posses a natural socialist disposition as well as a nationalist one. Even the UK Independence Party, originally an ultra-conservative outfit in its economic thought, now stays relatively quiet on financial matters as its growing membership of working class nationalists trends leftward on such issues


The fact that much of the most uneducated working class accepts bourgeois nationalism does not mean that bourgeois nationalism is in the interest of the working class.

The reason ultra-conservative and fascists outfits often appropriate part of the left (but mutilate it) is two fold:

First, and foremost, ideology and thought itself is the result of a material conception of reality. The fact that there are nations, in short, presupposes that there has always been nations and nations shall forever be. But this is simply not true. The nationstate as we know it is bourgeois, and their mode of production is the reality in which we all exist.

Engels wrote:Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, indeed, but with a false consciousness. The real motives impelling him remain unknown to him, otherwise it would not be an ideological process at all. Hence he imagines false or apparent motives. Because it is a process of thought he derives both its form and its content from pure thought, either his own or that of his predecessors. He works with mere thought material which he accepts without examination as the product of thought, he does not investigate further for a more remote process independent of thought; indeed its origin seems obvious to him, because as all action is produced through the medium of thought it also appears to him to be ultimately based upon thought. The ideologist who deals with history (history is here simply meant to comprise all the spheres – political, juridical, philosophical, theological – belonging to society and not only to nature), the ideologist dealing with history then, possesses in every sphere of science material which has formed itself independently out of the thought of previous generations and has gone through an independent series of developments in the brains of these successive generations. True, external facts belonging to its own or other spheres may have exercised a co-determining influence on this development, but the tacit pre-supposition is that these facts themselves are also only the fruits of a process of thought, and so we still remain within that realm of pure thought which has successfully digested the hardest facts.

It is above all this appearance of an independent history of state constitutions, of systems of law, of ideological conceptions in every separate domain, which dazzles most people. If Luther and Calvin “overcome” the official Catholic religion, or Hegel “overcomes” Fichte and Kant, or if the constitutional Montesquieu is indirectly “overcome” by Rousseau with his “Social Contract,” each of these events remains within the sphere of theology, philosophy or political science, represents a stage in the history of these particular spheres of thought and never passes outside the sphere of thought. And since the bourgeois illusion of the eternity and the finality of capitalist production has been added as well, even the victory of the physiocrats and Adam Smith over the mercantilists is accounted as a sheer victory of thought; not as the reflection in thought of changed economic facts but as the finally achieved correct understanding of actual conditions subsisting always and everywhere – in fact if Richard Coeur-de-Lion and Philip Augustus had introduced free trade instead of getting mixed up in the crusades we should have been spared five hundred years of misery and stupidity.


But it is not the only reality that has existed nor can exist. It is, instead, a reality built from capitalism—like the bourgeoisie itself.

The second reason is that the ultra-conservatives and fascists are petite-bourgousie in nature, and they see the haute-bourgousie as a mutual enemy of the working class. These kinds of concessions can be made in destroying a mutual enemy, but by keeping up the fervent bourgeois nationalism it undermines the victory (and happiness) of the proletariat, by means of playing one divided portion of the working class against the other.

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