[QatzelOk]

Park Avenue, in New York City, was a real park until 1922.


Then it was 'improved' to allow for car traffic.


Source

[Unperson-S]

Think what it was like before it was improved. Were cars on the avenue, and then they were forced to make the road larger?

Also, this is a city, everyone knows there is no quality of life in cities.

[Frank_Carbonni]

Cars have also made travel much easier and has allowed freedom of movement on a scale that did not exist before.

You see those who do not live in cities with excellent mass transit like New York City, Boston, Montreal, and even Chicago, pretty much need a car. You may ask, "Why not lobby for better public transportation?", in a lot of places it really isn't practical. The city I live in is not densely populated enough and the roads are built in such a way that non-direct trips on a bus can take up to an hour when the car ride would be 15-25 minutes. You add another 20 or so minutes of walking distance and you can add another two hours to a minor commute.

[Unperson-S]

Living in a village it is a real struggle to get anywhere without a car. I dont drive, so it basically means that if I am going places, it is with freinds, although I only have 2 freinds in my village, and one of those is studying in Cardiff. Like today - I was invited to go to mk cinema to see the bourne ultimatum, but couldnt as no one would give me a lift back to my village (about 5 minutes drive in the car from bedford, at the speeds most of them drive at), and the buses dont run past 9. So I went to see it at bedford cinema, which is pretty crap, and we had to walk there for half an hour, and then half an hour to the centre of town again to get the bus back - in the pouring rain, without a coat as I cant seem to find it since my europe trip. And then when I got there, the bus that was supposed to go all the way to cambridge (going through my village) stopped in bedford for the night, and I was told I would have to wait for an hour in the pouring rain. Great. So I got a taxi. And then I find out that one of my freinds from my village was going to the showing at 9 in milton keynes, so I could have fucking gone there anyway. Arseholes. Living in a village is good, unless you actually want to do anything, in which case it is shit.

[QatzelOk]

everyone knows there is no quality of life in cities.

This looks pretty high quality.
And all these big cities in America were just fine with electric streetcars and calm pedestrian/bicycle oriented streets. This is what we sacrificed to our cars. Sane living environments that aren't an hour away from most of our daily activities.

[Frank_Carbonni]

The area you are showing is also Park Avenue, which is one of the most exclusive areas in the United States for most of its length.

You also leave out that cities are much large (that is partly due to cars, in all fairness) than they were in prior to 1945.

[QatzelOk]

They were rebuilt to increase car use.

In order to guarantee money (and resource conflicts) to war profiteers newly rich after the giant orgy of government investment of World War Two.

Boy, did some people ever make a killing off all that killing.

And now, 40,000 Americans die in car accidents, and all city streets have become hideous, dysfunctional sewers for cars.

[Adrien]

Christ, stop spouting hippie propaganda against cars and retreat to a bio community in the moutains or something.

[ThirdWorldSoldier]

Think what you on a computer is doing to the enviornment

[QatzelOk]

Adrien, if you think cars are harmless, then you really don't care about many things. It means you are amoral when it comes to survival.

I'm not a hippy at all. I don't even own patchuli oil.

[GodSpeed]

We should ban medication too; lots of people die from improper use of medication.

[Notorious B.i.G.]

Look what the internet has done to the quality of urban life!

[QatzelOk]

Let's see some pix of how the Internet and Valium ruined urban life.

As far as I know, they are both means of dealing with a car-based environment.

[GodSpeed]

penicillin?

You dont think there would be many deaths from people riding horses 20 miles to work every day?

[QatzelOk]

You dont think there would be many deaths from people riding horses 20 miles to work every day?

Horses aren't the alternative to cars. Bikes and electric trains are.

And if cars weren't around, people wouldn't mind living closer together because the inner city would be a lot more livable. And safe. and quiet. And look at that first pic again.

[Notorious B.i.G.]

Not to mention food would be more expensive, not as fresh, and not as diverse.
With out automobiles, fresh food wouldn't be able to be transported as easily to cities such as New York or Melbourne.

Cities with large urban spreads would suffer a multitude of problems associated with distances without automotive vehicles and quality roads. Fire trucks getting to fires quickly and efficiently, ambulances getting to hart attack victims in time are only two simple examples to point out.

Don't worry; here come all the fire men on their bikes!

Only a liberal hippy douche would consider a society with out automobiles better.

[QatzelOk]

Fire trucks getting to fires quickly and efficiently, ambulances getting to hart attack victims in time are only two simple examples to point out.

Without cars blocking the roads, fire trucks and ambulances would get to their destinations a lot quicker. Most cities rig their tramway lines up so that emergency vehicles can use their tracks and rights-of-way.

Also, fresh food would come from the suburbs which would revert back to being farmland for their urban centres.

Also, food could be transported by electric or diesel trains, rather than 18-wheel truck.

[Smilin' Dave]

Without cars blocking the roads, fire trucks and ambulances would get to their destinations a lot quicker.

Without cars there would be no fire trucks, and far less roads. We would be stuck with forming bucket crews. Oh, and wagons... with horses that defecate everywhere.

Most cities rig their tramway lines up so that emergency vehicles can use their tracks and rights-of-way.

Which, unless you make trams as intrusive as roads and cars, would be a more limited form of access than a road. Further you don't see emergency vehicles use those access points too often because they are grossly inefficient.

Also, fresh food would come from the suburbs which would revert back to being farmland for their urban centres.

So those who that don't wish to be either heavily urbanised or stuck in agrarian back waters are shit out of luck? Over-suburbification might be undesirable, but eliminating it all together is even less desirable, and further eliminates diversity.

Also, food could be transported by electric or diesel trains, rather than 18-wheel truck.

How do the farmers get that produce to the train stations? They couldn't all be close to the depot, such density would be nearly impossible (there just isn't that much good farm land in such concentration) and if achieved, bad for the land (over farming is worse than bloody cars).

Farmers would thus be forced to limit the size of their crops, as too big a crop isn't transportable anyway. Farmers will be limited to small plots of land. Thus the profitability of farming is severely reduced. Thus reducing the chances of the farmer ever making a decent profit, and finally, killing social mobility.

WRT the original pictures, consider this: With a car, I can actually travel out to the real countryside (this isn't a hypothetical, I have actually done this), which is better than some fake, homogenised park any day. For someone who rails against consumerism, why have you opted for the consumerist version of nature Qatz?

The B.I.G implied you were a liberal hippy douche. I don't think that's true. I think you are a narrow minded clown.

[QatzelOk]

Without cars there would be no fire trucks, and far less roads.

Who said anything about eliminating fire trucks? Only you did.

but eliminating it (suburbia) all together is even less desirable, and further eliminates diversity.

Eliminating AIDS also lessens the diversity. The diversity of illness. Who cares about protecting suburban stupidityscapes.

How do the farmers get that produce to the train stations?

The same way they get them into the 18 wheelers - in smaller transportation vehicles. Farm vehicles are also like fire trucks and ambulances. About one percent of vehicles.

With a car, I can actually travel out to the real countryside (this isn't a hypothetical, I have actually done this)

No way, seriously? You drove out to the country. It's nice, isn't it. The smell of carbon monoxide mixed with roadkill.

I think you are a narrow minded clown.

My posts must seem like the Cirque de Soleil.

[Smilin' Dave]

Who said anything about eliminating fire trucks? Only you did.

So you are going to keep the whole road network... just for fire trucks? Seems to contradict the idea in the earlier post, that the park was ruined by the expanded road.

How about people driving to hospital by the way? Or will the semi-infirmed be forced to walk/tram there? Perhaps we can further over burden the ambulance service by giving them a lift?

Eliminating AIDS also lessens the diversity.

It's also something of a pipe dream this day and age. You know, like the belief you can just wish away suburbs without any negative consequences.

The diversity of illness. Who cares about protecting suburban stupidityscapes.

Wow, a broad generalisation. Want to tell me what is stupid about my suburb? Or are you ignorant enough to assume all suburbs are Americanised, complete with McMansions?

It also completely dodges my point about social and economic diversity.

The same way they get them into the 18 wheelers - in smaller transportation vehicles. Farm vehicles are also like fire trucks and ambulances. About one percent of vehicles.

So why can't the farmer use said truck to drive into the urban areas and sell his own produce? Your train network forces the farmer to be dependant on go-betweens.

And why can't I have a car to move the weeks groceries, which the farmer originally supplied, to my home? The shop is only a short walk away, but no one would want to carry that much that far.

What about if I conceivably wanted to move furniture without hiring a removalist van? Garage sales are going to suck in your fantasy world.

No way, seriously? You drove out to the country. It's nice, isn't it. The smell of carbon monoxide mixed with roadkill.

Judging by this comment, you have never been to the real countryside. No wonder you like parks, it's nice a safe for psuedo rebels.

Are you happy with the smell of industry and horse shit? With the reduction in cars, factories are going to have to move to the workers. Or you could destroy people's freedom even more and effective restrict them to workers communities. Another bullet to the head of diversity.

Returning to that original post again, without the symbolic change in central park, we might very well have never gone beyond horse-drawn transport.

My posts must seem like the Cirque de Soleil.

Ah, you have finally caught me, I was wrong about something. Clowns are supposed to be entertaining. Maybe you are more like the clowns that entertain bored children in long queues.

So, do you have any further retreats to make? Or is car traffic not always bad.