[EastCoastAmerican]

I've seen Rei Murasame and Figlio di Moros both refer to something called The Great Work when discussing fascism. Can somebody fill me in on what this is?

[Rei Murasame]

This probably should've been posted in the Spirituality subforum if it's only about The Great Work, transformation of humanity and ascension to the next stage of civilisation, which is carried out through the Externalisation of the Hierarchy. But I'll answer it here anyway, this is good enough too.

Basically the universe has an intention, it wants humans to struggle between themselves, the ends being to become technically capable enough to assume responsibility over planetary evolution and publicly re-establish the investigation of the Mysteries.

Humans would be able to have the ability to use the planet's resources as a way to allow the universe to become fully aware of itself as 'One Thing' and look at itself, which is to say, there may be a ritual moment in a totally ideologically homogeneous society when the barriers of conceptual unity will give way to realised unity; and in that moment a people will become aware - all at once, as all lies and all boundaries would be temporarily suspended - of the interdependence of all beings in all states of consciousness and simultaneously be finally made aware of what the universe wants.

But made aware how, and by who?

The aforementioned 'beings in different states of consciousness' consist of many different types of beings, some of whom lived long ago, others who have yet to live. The political revolutionary process (I talk about that all the time and need not restate it now) which culminates in bridging the gap between 'conceptual unity' (theory) and 'realised unity' (practice) as detailed in my previous paragraph, entails opening up a situation where the members of the Spiritual Hierarchy will not merely be close, and will not merely speak through willing vessels as they do now. Rather, the Hierarchy will literally be able to cross that gap and externalise themselves. Incarnating in the physical plane like how it was in the ancient times, at that stage the Members of the Hierarchy, the Masters, would literally be walking among us and our most august ancient goddess would subsequently be able to finally direct human affairs to accomplish whatever goals She finds useful, as it was at the beginning of human history.

What those goals are will not be entirely known to us, because this isn't some sort of rock-solid prophecy or anything like that. In case anyone gets the wrong idea, the Hierarchy isn't merely a convenient extension of our ego, they are not there to serve our agenda alone when we become 'good enough' to let them cross over. No. The Members of the Hierarchy also have their own goals and their own agenda too, the aims of which are unknown to us. These would not be revealed to anyone until such time as they deem appropriate, and as they get closer - with our assistance - the chances of them revealing some of their own intentions increases.

Long story short, all of this is to prepare ourselves collectively to receive the message of what our next purpose is.

Some other noticeable outcomes that must happen along the way that I didn't describe in detail in order to keep this brief, just as quick bullet points:

• The re-establishment and reinforcement of the old religions made new and adapted for the new era.
  
  
• The reorganisation of society around sacred spaces as the centre of communities, in other words the end of secularism.
  
  
• Public establishment of a system of initiation into the Mysteries.
  
  
• Restoration and rehabilitation of certain ancient spiritual locations and landmarks which have fallen into disrepair under reactionary regimes that are hostile to the Externalisation of the Hierarchy.
  
  But what of sites that have been destroyed? This means for example, in cases like where the Taliban destroyed the sacred Bamiyan Buddhas with dynamite, they must pay for this transgression with their blood and be purged from existence as a group. After that, some sort of stand-in monument will have to be erected in the place of the ones that they destroyed.
  
  
• The decline in popularity of all individualist ideologies of this era.
  
  
• Etc, etc.

Okay, hopefully that gives a general idea. I'll close with a quote:

The world is facing a historic turning point because the system of materialistic liberalism has come to a deadlock.

Nothing I've said in this post is original. What is perhaps new is that I have attempted to summarise what is actually a very big topic in as plain-speak as possible and in as short a post as possible, without using too much jargon, without referencing symbols such as the 'central sun' or 'black sun' or 'alchemical transformation' etc which are not understood by readers, and without using any language other than English. This was quite a challenge I set myself, wasn't it? I wonder if the result is parse-able.

[Far-Right Sage]

I feel as if there is a good bit I could add here, but Rei laid it out exceptionally well. What is very much a shame about those Buddhas of the Bamiyan valley is that, if memory serves, it was either the Japanese government or a private Japanese historical society which made a formal offer to the Afghan authorities to salvage those monuments, even paying for their removal and transport from Afghanistan to Japan in full rather than see them laid waste, but the Taliban just wasn't having it.

On a side note about the importance of maintaining indigenous faiths, you will notice among many fascists apart from those who are actually fascists in name only (those who espouse anti-fascist concepts such as authoritarianism and atheism) and more useful to the propagandists amongst our opponents, you will find there is a great reverence for the Dharmic faiths all of which sprang forth from Hinduism which itself arrived as an amalgamation of multiple paths as laid out in the original Vedas that sprung up from the Indus river valley. This is because, at the risk of being crudely simplistic, it is the world's largest surviving pagan faith and thus contains countless unique properties to which the descendants of the original Indo-European peoples today in the British isles and continental Europe must affix their tortured minds to - minds which unfortunately have been pulled over the centuries in several crippling, misguided, and unhelpful directions which delay the inevitable. The Hindu folk have successfully resisted the militant proselytizing of Christianity and Islam in their land and thus are spiritually equipped, in a most unique manner, with an entire arsenal of useful lessons to teach the white man which has found himself lost, led astray like a naked blinded ape for two millennia after a regrettable detour on the march toward progress and enlightenment.

There is currently a discussion which was started by our very own Fasces which very much ties into this issue as well which I had intended to comment on. Essentially, you cannot understand fascism without understanding our unitary end goal of political elevation as a means to an end of spiritual regeneration and the establishment of the blissfully pervasive unifying consciousness. Countless numbers criticize fascism yet an extremely small minority today understands the nature of our purpose.

I didn't mean to enter into a rant, but Rei is very well researched in this and perhaps could expand on it to resolve potential confusion.

[Rei Murasame]

That's very well-said, FRS, and yes, there are lots of ways avenues there which could be explored, since you've mentioned a lot of things that I would love to comment on.

The only reason I'd hold back on doing that at this stage in the thread is that EastCoastAmerican and other observers have not responded to either of us yet, so I want to give them a chance to question the basics before we branch off into discussion of the how the situation on the 'battlefield' (for lack of a better term) looks as of now.

[Far-Right Sage]

Thank you, and it's actually a fair point to say that without understanding the end goals of multiple ideologies, one cannot make an informed decision. I despise liberalism and Marxism as two sides of the same degenerate materialist coin, but one must recognize that these systems themselves present an "end game" within their subtext, which of course is very detached from what the overwhelming majority who exist within their system day to day yet are ignorant of ideology realize, and even from what some of their official ideologists will espouse in countless attempts to appeal to the masses. Ultimately it is a battle we are fighting, but one which is completely cosmic in scope. And I believe the path toward materialist creeds is an accelerated plunge into the abyss. If I could use two words to describe fascist theory, thought, and action? Elevation and liberation. Elevation of civilization to its greatest potential height far above parliamentary, economic, or social divisions. Liberation from the materialistic paradigm which ensnares most of Urðr's people today.

Furthermore, fascism was never a new invention dreamed up by passionate Italian intellectuals. It was the fiery love of those men of their time however, which unlocked the misplaced key for future generations to enjoy. Nothing is ever lost, and internalizing this principle, it is easy to only be more determined than ever when facing any form of defeat or material destruction.

My son (the one who still lives in New York state) happened to send me this video a few weeks ago:

[youtube]3UiqTNCnFv8[/youtube]

[Rei Murasame]

Complete agreement again. The video that you've linked to also really seems to showcase just how adept Serrano was at making associations between different deities that were in fact the same deity, I like how he does it in the same style that I and many others do quite casually, with hyphens, or with those sentences where he says like 'such and such is also called this'. Of course, being where he was situated, he mentions a lot of South American gods that I had never taken into consideration in that way, so it's fascinating. We probably need to reach out to South Americans more, then.

Two quotes from that video I'll select that leaped out at me because they broadly recognised now, are:

The Legend of Eternal Love is on the point of disappearing because of the hybridisation of the 'blood memories'. The youth has been influenced by black music. The Archetype has been debased. Plato shows us that Atlantis was drowned because of an indiscriminate mingling of Archetypes, because of their destruction in the 'blood memory'.

And:

Evidence is given here as to how the Book of Genesis has been expurgated and falsified, transforming the apple into the fruit of sin. The apple symbolises the star of our origins, Venus, the Morning Star, from which came the divine ancestors and knowledge, and with which we must enter into contact so as to be able to resurrect.

That first quote is fantastic because he is not the first to have said that, and hopefully he will not be the last to have said it. The second quote is also fantastic because that is a sign that he also realised what was going on, and had the courage to say it boldly.

A lot of people have been encoding these views into popular media (such as a certain luciferian artist I've snuck into the Jukebox link in those link embeds above, look for the keywords and my explanation at the bottom of that one), but to see Serrano just say it outright in a year after 1945, that is really something.

This thread is great. Brilliant post, FRS.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I had a discussion with an ex-pat Indian a couple of years ago who explained a little of her faith to me. FRS, when you said that Hinduism resisted the onslaught of Abrahamic religions, I think that term is slightly incorrect. To Hinduism, Christianity is not an antagonistic religion; key spiritual components of Christianity, such as Christ coming to Earth as an avatar of God, actually conform to broader themes within Hindu thought. I forget who she said it was, but Christ - to Hindus - was one of many aspects of a Hindu deity's appearances on Earth. The second coming of Christ would be a significant spiritual moment for Hinduism.

I may well be wrong or misleading; this is only how I remember what she said.

[Rei Murasame]

Perhaps the themes of incarnation of a god are not foreign to it, but its organisational structure seems to be. For example, my guess - tell me if I'm wrong - is that the Hindus you talked to see Jesus of Nazareth as a possible avatar of Lord Vishnu (that would make logical sense to me, at least).

I assume that Christians are not willing to see Jesus incorporated into the Hindu pantheon, so there seems to be a deadlock there, at least for the moment.

[The Clockwork Rat]

That sounds about right, that Christ was an avatar of Vishnu.

Obviously they do prefer different societal structures, but my PC side didn't want to discuss the caste system with her. She was my guest after all, and a good host doesn't start to interrogate their guests about the failings of their culture.

[Far-Right Sage]

I had a discussion with an ex-pat Indian a couple of years ago who explained a little of her faith to me. FRS, when you said that Hinduism resisted the onslaught of Abrahamic religions, I think that term is slightly incorrect. To Hinduism, Christianity is not an antagonistic religion; key spiritual components of Christianity, such as Christ coming to Earth as an avatar of God, actually conform to broader themes within Hindu thought. I forget who she said it was, but Christ - to Hindus - was one of many aspects of a Hindu deity's appearances on Earth. The second coming of Christ would be a significant spiritual moment for Hinduism.

I may well be wrong or misleading; this is only how I remember what she said.

No, I don't think you are incorrect, Clockwork. The issue is a murky one and I should probably further clarify the intention of my statement. When I stated that Hindus resisted the proselytization of the Abrahamic faiths in the subcontinent, I think we must distinguish between on one hand the doctrine of Christianity which is both universalist and not inclusive of Hindu (or any other polytheistic) themes as well as the culture and lifestyle associated with it and on the other hand the interpretation, as you made reference to, of Christian myths as reconcilable within Hindu doctrine.

In the first case, many Hindus are hostile to a singular doctrine such as any specific branch of Christianity being cast upon them. After all, if one were to follow the religion accurately and with zeal, it would make moral taboos and social stigmatizations of many of the natural actions and folkways experienced by the Hindus as a cohesive people over the last several thousand years. Opposition to Islam is far more pronounced in many areas, because, well, Christians never penetrated India to the extent that Muslims did in the form of Babur I and the Mughal Empire. Sure, the Portuguese tried and lovely tales emanate from the colonial period in Goa such as the execution of captive religious dissidents and "smearing their lips[the lips of Hindus]" with beef so as to render them untouchable, but it never became a pervasive force to the extent that equally expansionist and universalist Islam did. Islam also usurped many of the sacred places within India where specific Hindu rites were carried out in tribute to individual gods and goddesses, or earthly manifestations of those gods and goddesses in the form of avatāra, such as Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh. And it did so deliberately. In Ayodhya, Babur I, first Mughal emperor to effectively administer a regime on Indian soil, constructed the Babri Mosque in the 16th century to sit dominant in the town of Lord Rama's (Vishnu's seventh avatar) birthplace. This unfortunate affront was corrected in 1992, when Hindu nationalists demolished the mosque through collective violent action and have since established a shrine to Rama in its stead.

That being said, there is still fierce opposition to the influence of Christianity every bit as much as Islam on the part of many Hindus and political organizations affiliated with the call for the establishment of Hindutva - the Shiv Sena, the late Balasaheb Thackeray's social and paramilitary body the RSS, etc. In fact, in the case of Thackeray, resounding calls for the boycott of the Christian-inspired and Western consumerist dominated Valentine's Day holiday have been made loud and clear in the region of Maharashtra. Attacks on converts to Christianity, who are seen as a form of blood traitors and the blasphemers of heritage, in low-income communities in regions such as Orissa has been on the increase.

The second case is a question of doctrinal interpretation, and when discussing Hinduism, this of course can lead one down a murky road with multiple ends. Within the branch of Vaishnavism in the Hindu religion, primacy is placed on lord Vishnu within the Trimurti, effectively (and again, dependent or not upon selective interpretations) representing his manifestations as the supreme personification of the Godhead. Vishnu has ten avatars and Jesus is not typically considered to be among them, although there is much debate amongst adherents of Vaishnavism themselves upon many details, such as the legitimacy of Siddhartha Gautama/the Buddha as the ninth avatar, the cosmological time frame stipulating the return of the last anticipated avatar in the form of Kalki, etc. I believe what you may be referring to is closer to what I have heard from some followers of a branch emphasizing the persona of Krishna, today adapted by many into a New Age type of social awareness movement called "Krishna Consciousness". Many devotees from South Asia have been making the rounds giving lectures in American universities, particularly on the West Coast, on the topic of Krishna, modern interpretations of the Bhagavad Gita, the question of whether an agnostic dissent is reconcilable within the framework of Hinduism, the person of Jesus Christ and his relation to Hindu figures. Of course, if one were to incorporate Christian figures, this is generally done by those more apt to find themselves latter day adherents of Swami Vivekananda's proclamations and many in a way fashion themselves modernizing reformists. He would bear no resemblance to much of what is found in original Hindu texts, or even in far cruder versions in the form of the original "primitive" folk religion of the Indus river valley which later gave way to "establishment religion" in the form of the great Vedic texts and so on.

The original Vedas were taken by the peasantry living around the Indus river not only as a way of explaining some of life's mysteries, but a form of Bronze Age agricultural manual, survivalist guide, etc. Later, analysts and scholars within the Hindu civilization themselves, would expound upon and compare their myths to those of other lands. Finding common themes which can be interpreted as hearkening back to an original, singular, pre-existing religion, such as the draw of comparisons between Matsya - the "fish" and first avatar of lord Vishnu - and the story of Noah and his ark, for example, is what provided the scholarly basis and groundwork for what eventually became the philosophic doctrine of Perennialism; which continues to transfix elements of European and North American academia to this day.

[Figlio di Moros]

I was actually just barebacking Rei's use of the term, I had assumed "the Great Work" meant just that.

Obviously they do prefer different societal structures, but my PC side didn't want to discuss the caste system with her. She was my guest after all, and a good host doesn't start to interrogate their guests about the failings of their culture.

You assume caste and jati are failings. Only in the cold, machinist structure of British Colonialism did the Castes become something oppressive. Historically, they're comparable to relative body parts- the head, the arms, the torso, and the legs. The Jati, or the specific labor-community, was more important. Once Jati, when asked what their caste was, responded "soldier-saddle makers", not exactly Ksatriya nor Vaishya. When you maintain a fluid understanding of the castes rather than a mechanical one (think how a human arm connects to the torso, v. a toy arm), you ultimately have a working, interdependent society. The importance of the upper caste, the Ksatriya-Brahmin, is that through action and contemplation they not only reveal sacred knowledge to themselves, but set a path for the whole of society.

[Rei Murasame]

Many devotees from South Asia have been making the rounds giving lectures in American universities, particularly on the West Coast, on the topic of Krishna, modern interpretations of the Bhagavad Gita, the question of whether an agnostic dissent is reconcilable within the framework of Hinduism, the person of Jesus Christ and his relation to Hindu figures.

Would it be safe to say that "Hindu compatible Jesus", is a tactical operation, of the same sort that "New Age Jesus" or "Theosophical Christ" is? Where rather than head-on opposing Christians out of the gate, it seeks to induct them by use of comparisons and parallels?

Almost like the good cop (induction) and bad cop (overt criticism) approaches being used at the same time?

Obviously they do prefer different societal structures, but my PC side didn't want to discuss the caste system with her. She was my guest after all, and a good host doesn't start to interrogate their guests about the failings of their culture.

Oh, usually I don't mention caste with them since it's like they usually always agree with me on the issue of allowing people to move upward if they can (see Figlio's post which is good), and that all the castes are 'needed'.

The point of contention is the issues of the Khaps, since you can never be sure if you will run into someone who believes the sorts of things that the Khaps come out with, and then you might have an argument over what the scriptures do or do not say. The Khap-promulgated prohibitions on various things - many of them sexual and familial - do not exist anywhere in the scriptures and were basically used as a power play (the Delhi High Court also refuses to take the Khaps' bleating and whining seriously anymore). It's unfortunate that some have bought into it.

[Far-Right Sage]

Would it be safe to say that "Hindu compatible Jesus", is a tactical operation, of the same sort that "New Age Jesus" or "Theosophical Christ" is? Where rather than head-on opposing Christians out of the gate, it seeks to induct them by use of comparisons and parallels?

Almost like the good cop (induction) and bad cop (overt criticism) approaches being used at the same time?

Yes, I believe that's a large part of the thinking behind it, because there is a very simple truth at play here. That simple truth is this: Hinduism can absorb Christianity whereas Christianity cannot do the reverse. Hinduism has been around far longer and will be around after Christianity as modernists envision it is largely consigned to the dustbin of irrelevance in the West. With the erroneous policies of state secularism brought about by a misguided path taken on the road of the Enlightenment, atheism has been an increasing factor as a result in the liberal West of the 20th and now 21st century.

Call me fatalist, but this is the type of stuff that eventually comes full circle and does so in the most delicious manner possible.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Fig, when I said "failings" I meant it in the same way I did "interrogate." That is, without serious meaning behind it.

I may have emotional distaste for the caste system, but as one who subscribes to Marxist theory, it is like my less emotionally engaged views of Capitalism. I recognise capitalism as an economic system within history and that it has resulted in an unfolding of technology through time, but regardless of whether I believe it should collapse or not, I do not regard it as having "failed."

Likewise with the Hindu caste system; it has unfolded through time, people exist within the system - for better or for worse - but it has in no real sense "failed."

[Figlio di Moros]

Would it be safe to say that "Hindu compatible Jesus", is a tactical operation, of the same sort that "New Age Jesus" or "Theosophical Christ" is? Where rather than head-on opposing Christians out of the gate, it seeks to induct them by use of comparisons and parallels?

Almost like the good cop (induction) and bad cop (overt criticism) approaches being used at the same time?

A more blatant comparison, Rei, would be of the Christianization of Pagan Europe. I can't speak on Roman Christianity, but the heathens and Germans were baptized with the belief Jesus and Yahweh were minor dieties. Only over generations, and understanding the obligation of baptizing their children, was it possible to convince the pagan people that this minor diety was, in fact, the one true god and worshiping Woden, Tiw, Thunor, etc. was hereticism.

"Hindu compatable Jesus" is exactly the same path that lead to the Christianization of Europe.

It's also possible this path was the same path that de-Aryanized the Israelites. I've discussed with Rei somewhat at a previous time the "four books" that lead to the Torah (Elohist, Yahwehist, Deuteronimist, and "Priestly"), the last one appearing the same time frame the torah was written, in the post-exile period when the Persian Emperor had allowed Israelites to return, but with no aristocracy.

[Rei Murasame]

Ah, are you saying that the strategy could backfire, then? If so, I agree, that if one side tries to appropriate the deity of the other, and then the Christians maintain their 'uniqueness' and 'exclusivity' narrative, it would be a disaster.

This is why I'd say that basically there can be no productive dialogue unless Christians are willing to take a path toward dissolving their own religion first by renouncing the exclusivity of Jesus. Only then can the 'absorption' described by FRS, occur.

[Figlio di Moros]

I hadn't realized you meant "Hindu-friendly Jesus" was our strategy. Yes, adopting the same strategy repeatedly used in the past by Christianity to break tradition will not end well. If we mean to allow the fire of Abramic religion to burn down so we can once more turn over the soil of man's spirit, we should not expect that allowing the flame to spread through forest and field would be productive.

[EastCoastAmerican]

Sorry if I couldn't respond immediately. I was doing stuff.

This probably should've been posted in the Spirituality subforum if it's only about The Great Work, transformation of humanity and ascension to the next stage of civilisation, which is carried out through the Externalisation of the Hierarchy. But I'll answer it here anyway, this is good enough too.

1. Basically the universe has an intention, it wants humans to struggle between themselves, the ends being to become technically capable enough to assume responsibility over planetary evolution and publicly re-establish the investigation of the Mysteries.

2. Humans would be able to have the ability to use the planet's resources as a way to allow the universe to become fully aware of itself as 'One Thing' and look at itself, which is to say, there may be a ritual moment in a totally ideologically homogeneous society when the barriers of conceptual unity will give way to realised unity; and in that moment a people will become aware - all at once, as all lies and all boundaries would be temporarily suspended - of the interdependence of all beings in all states of consciousness and simultaneously be finally made aware of what the universe wants.

But made aware how, and by who?

3. The aforementioned 'beings in different states of consciousness' consist of many different types of beings, some of whom lived long ago, others who have yet to live. The political revolutionary process (I talk about that all the time and need not restate it now) which culminates in bridging the gap between 'conceptual unity' (theory) and 'realised unity' (practice) as detailed in my previous paragraph, entails opening up a situation where the members of the Spiritual Hierarchy will not merely be close, and will not merely speak through willing vessels as they do now. Rather, the Hierarchy will literally be able to cross that gap and externalise themselves. Incarnating in the physical plane like how it was in the ancient times, at that stage the Members of the Hierarchy, the Masters, would literally be walking among us and our most august ancient goddess would subsequently be able to finally direct human affairs to accomplish whatever goals She finds useful, as it was at the beginning of human history.

What those goals are will not be entirely known to us, because this isn't some sort of rock-solid prophecy or anything like that. In case anyone gets the wrong idea, the Hierarchy isn't merely a convenient extension of our ego, they are not there to serve our agenda alone when we become 'good enough' to let them cross over. No. The Members of the Hierarchy also have their own goals and their own agenda too, the aims of which are unknown to us. These would not be revealed to anyone until such time as they deem appropriate, and as they get closer - with our assistance - the chances of them revealing some of their own intentions increases.

Long story short, all of this is to prepare ourselves collectively to receive the message of what our next purpose is.

1. Are you saying that the universe is sapient?

2. This sounds an awfully lot like Corporatism, but with a quasi-religious dressing. Is this what it's based off of, or are the similarities coincidental?

3. This sounds just like a religion. Bridging the gap between physical and spiritual worlds, coming into contact with a group of "higher" beings on another planes of existence.

[Figlio di Moros]

The universe is full of knowledge, it just needs to become organized. Think about a computer, an electron can carry binary, an infintesmal amount of knowledge. it's almost a rule that it flows through everything in the universe, and through the universe itself. In somethings, like an atom, it's barely noticable, while in plants, animals, people- progressively we see a greater realization of it.

[mikema63]

Out of curiosity why is hierarchy inherent and need to be made into the real world to make the universe sentient? And what do you mean by global-evolution, it smacks of transhumanism. Do you wish to integrate humanity into a single entity of one mind?