A question for the Liberals/Democrats on rights. - Page 10 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
User avatar
By The Clockwork Rat
#13201724
Try teaching a child that morality. It wont work. What they see and learn is indifference to life from inaction.
They learn your morals are hallow and have no meaning because your words are backed by inaction. Children learn their parents are hypocrites. They too then become their parents.

My parents are not hypocrites.
By DanDaMan
#13201732
My parents are not hypocrites.
I am not trying to say they are. I do not know them. But in general parents that say one thing with the right hand about how wrong abortion is and then say a person has the right to do it is not fully grasping the hypocrisy a smart child will see. The child sees a parent incapable of actually standing for something. Then you have jaded and indifferent moral-less children growing up and running nations. I call them Liberals. :lol:
User avatar
By The Clockwork Rat
#13201758
I am not trying to say they are. I do not know them. But in general parents that say one thing with the right hand about how wrong abortion is and then say a person has the right to do it is not fully grasping the hypocrisy a smart child will see. The child sees a parent incapable of actually standing for something. Then you have jaded and indifferent moral-less children growing up and running nations. I call them Liberals. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
:|
Again, showing a complete lack of understanding about political theory.
By DanDaMan
#13201815
Again, showing a complete lack of understanding about political theory.
"Political theory"? I've been down this train of thought here with others. If you are trying the same with me you will lose. Academic theory is just that... academic (a synonym for pointless). I judge politics by what is done and it's realistic application/implementation. Not what is said.
User avatar
By Gork
#13201955
But in general parents that say one thing with the right hand about how wrong abortion is and then say a person has the right to do it is not fully grasping the hypocrisy a smart child will see.
Thank God we don't let children run the country. Nor you. This is the first time, I think in history, that an argument in the realm of political philosophy has cited the ignorance of children as objective proof that those same children are wholly correct about their misinformed opinions:

Premise 1: Child thinks x.
Premise 2: Student of political science, philosophy, religion and psychology, with a master's degree in education, thinks y.
Premise 3: There is no higher form of intelligence in the world than an un-educated child.
Premise 4: Child thinks Well-educated, worldly person with life experience is silly.
Conclusion: Grad student, and all of the authors he reads, each world-renowned in their fields, are silly.

I'll give you this: you're original, but just because you've personally been astonished at how much smarter than you some children are doesn't mean their opinions on morality or philosophy are of any consequence. The only reason my argument wouldn't make any sense to a child is that a child's sense of morality, as per Piaget and Kohlberg, is entirely based on what they want for themselves and, around middle school age, what they see as the prevalent morality in the world around them. Your argument makes me think you, too, are stuck in stage 1 or 2 of Kohlberg's moral development, while most people on this forum, on the left and right, are at stages 4, 5 or 6. This realization leads me to believe that you may, in fact, be 9 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%2 ... evelopment
By Zerogouki
#13201991
Biologicly, you're not alive until the Third Trimester when it is possible to live outside the womb


Biologically, that is a steaming pile of bullshit, as it would exclude parasites from things that are considered "alive".

Try teaching a child that morality. It wont work. What they see and learn is indifference to life from inaction.
They learn your morals are hallow and have no meaning because your words are backed by inaction. Children learn their parents are hypocrites.


There's nothing hypocritical about it because the opposition to race-based abortion is not made on moral grounds. If you want to make a life-sized house out of LEGOs and actually live in it, a lot of people will think that idea is wholly retarded and impractical, but they won't consider it immoral and won't stop you from living your plastic dream. Same thing with aborting a baby on the basis of its race.

But in general parents that say one thing with the right hand about how wrong abortion is and then say a person has the right to do it


Nobody is doing that, though.
By DanDaMan
#13204130
But in general parents that say one thing with the right hand about how wrong abortion is and then say a person has the right to do it is not fully grasping the hypocrisy a smart child will see.
Thank God we don't let children run the country. Nor you. This is the first time, I think in history, that an argument in the realm of political philosophy has cited the ignorance of children as objective proof that those same children are wholly correct about their misinformed opinions:

Premise 1: Child thinks x.
Premise 2: Student of political science, philosophy, religion and psychology, with a master's degree in education, thinks y.
Premise 3: There is no higher form of intelligence in the world than an un-educated child.
Premise 4: Child thinks Well-educated, worldly person with life experience is silly.
Conclusion: Grad student, and all of the authors he reads, each world-renowned in their fields, are silly.

I'll give you this: you're original, but just because you've personally been astonished at how much smarter than you some children are doesn't mean their opinions on morality or philosophy are of any consequence. The only reason my argument wouldn't make any sense to a child is that a child's sense of morality, as per Piaget and Kohlberg, is entirely based on what they want for themselves and, around middle school age, what they see as the prevalent morality in the world around them. Your argument makes me think you, too, are stuck in stage 1 or 2 of Kohlberg's moral development, while most people on this forum, on the left and right, are at stages 4, 5 or 6. This realization leads me to believe that you may, in fact, be 9 years old.
What you fail to understand is your reasoning means nothing when you failed them by being hypocritical on the first lesson.
You have lost trust and stature of those looking up to you for guidance.
User avatar
By Genghis Khan
#13251568
Why is crushing the skull and sucking out the brains of a baby in the womb is a "constitutional right"?


Why is injecting lethal chemicals to someone's system for the purpose of killing him a "constitutional right"?
By DanDaMan
#13252682
Quote:
Why is crushing the skull and sucking out the brains of a baby in the womb is a "constitutional right"?
Why is injecting lethal chemicals to someone's system for the purpose of killing him a "constitutional right"?
One is an innocent and totally defenseless child in the womb and the other is an adult tried by a jury of his peers, (most likely) for the taking of an innocent life.

You need to start judging and discriminating the difference and lose the Zero Tolerance mentality taught in school.
Let's face it... if the police thought like you they wouldn't execute child molesters/killers that have a gun to the head of a child in order to save the child now would they?
User avatar
By The Clockwork Rat
#13252694
by a jury of his peers

This is the bit that annoys me. I'm currently writing an essay on psychology in court and basically, people are kinda useless. Fun statistic, Eyewitness testimony has been at fault in over 75% of convictions overturned due to DNA evidence in the US. So, peers doesn't really cut it. As for the child, up until ~24 weeks (?) it's little more use than a tumour, but we've been over this before so let's ignore that.
User avatar
By Genghis Khan
#13252712
One is an innocent and totally defenseless child in the womb and the other is an adult tried by a jury of his peers, (most likely) for the taking of an innocent life.


So if we want to make sure no one kills anyone, we should enforce it by... killing?

Besides, what about the countless times juries get it wrong? In how many cases, were human beings put to the death for something they didn't do? It's not like we can reverse it later.

Why is crushing the skull and sucking out the brains of a baby in the womb is a "constitutional right"?


Up to a certain point, it's not a child. It's a fetus. A blubbering collection of cells that does nothing. What if I say that we can't eat eggs, because they'll transform to chickens one day? (not that we don't eat chickens, just for the point)
By DanDaMan
#13252742
by a jury of his peers
This is the bit that annoys me. I'm currently writing an essay on psychology in court and basically, people are kinda useless. Fun statistic, Eyewitness testimony has been at fault in over 75% of convictions overturned due to DNA evidence in the US. So, peers doesn't really cut it. As for the child, up until ~24 weeks (?) it's little more use than a tumour, but we've been over this before so let's ignore that.
Since that bit annoys you would you have no problem executing those caught on tape?

So if we want to make sure no one kills anyone, we should enforce it by... killing?
Again you prove the Left does not care about life. As in this case, you would let an innocent person die at the hands of someone threatening to take a life.


Up to a certain point, it's not a child. It's a fetus. A blubbering collection of cells that does nothing. What if I say that we can't eat eggs,
Epic Fail.
Flesh put in the womb does nothing. It's not Life. A "fetus" is because it grows to maturity.
Again, the Left proves it is not the party of Life.
Last edited by DanDaMan on 30 Nov 2009 15:44, edited 2 times in total.
By DanDaMan
#13252759
Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said "the bit". Actually, I would have a problem with execution anyway. I'm sure you know that and I'm also sure that you won't listen to my reasons. Still, like I said, about 3/4 of all overturned convictions have been based on EWT.
Take a respectable "moral" position on it then and don't base it on mans imperfection at prosecution. Man will never get anything perfect so don't go down a road that can never be resolved.

Morally though... if you can validate SWAT executing a man with a gun to the head of a child you should have no double standard of another man that has already killed a child.
Capiche?
User avatar
By The Clockwork Rat
#13252777
I know that we will never reach perfection, but justice can currently get better.

As for execution, I see the acts of punishment and prevention as being distinct. A person, in my opinion, should be given the opportunity to "atone" for their crime. If there is no choice as to how to prevent a crime, as in the example you gave, then I would indeed kill the person with a gun. If the crime has already happened, the person who committed it still has the ability to make up for it. They could prevent a crime from being committed themselves.
By DanDaMan
#13252787
As for execution, I see the acts of punishment and prevention as being distinct. A person, in my opinion, should be given the opportunity to "atone" for their crime. If there is no choice as to how to prevent a crime, as in the example you gave, then I would indeed kill the person with a gun. If the crime has already happened, the person who committed it still has the ability to make up for it. They could prevent a crime from being committed themselves.
Wishfull thinking on your part. Statistics also, I beleive, prove you wrong.

And still, your example shows a double standard for Life. You can execute a man for threatening a life but not execute a man for having already taken a life!
By DanDaMan
#13252819
And still, your example shows a double standard for Life.

No, it shows a recognition of differing circumstances.
No. If you validate executing a life to protect the life of a child but not for the taking of the life of a different child you have a double standard of value of life.
See... the second life is now worth LESS than the child that's still alive.
That's a double standard on the value of life.
User avatar
By The Clockwork Rat
#13252955
I'm not just taking the child's life into account you see. A child that is born has many more emotional connections to other people than an unborn child. It has experience, memory and feelings. About the SWAT/execution dichotomy, in one case, someone is about to die, in the other, they are already dead and so the only life you are taking into account is that of the murderer. They are different cases.

To you this appears as a double standard, but in fact, it is a pretty logical derivation of my core values.
By kingbee
#13254658
Modern Liberals and Democrats are the parties of death when they want to make crushing the skulls of unborn children a constitutional right.


Jesus. Why are you so emotive about this?

How about...

"Modern conservatives and Republicans are the parties of death when they allow vicious and violent soldiers to horrifically rape and heartlessly kill poor, harmless civilians in complete brutality and cold blood."

See what I did there?

I did exactly what you're doing.
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