[Cartertonian]

Millions have lived long lives without seeing a doctor.

Yes, *sighs*, but you don't know when you will need healthcare - that's the point of insurance. I dare say few motor insurers would be willing to insure your car after you've crashed it. Similarly, I would have thought it unlikely that you could get a health insurance package from your ER gurney as you are struggling to stay alive after a heart attack.

Sure, you can cruise along with your fingers crossed in the hope that you never need it...but you can cruise along in your car, uninsured, in the hope that you never need car insurance (or get stopped by the police). And, if you're wealthy enough, you can relax in the knowledge that when you need your triple bypass you can rummage down the back of the couch for the sort of pocket-change that will cover that kinda procedure...

[LetsTalkAboutIt]

I just think its like Carlin said concerning the voters and the government. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Gladly. Limbaugh and Hannity command enormous audiences, almost all identified with the republican party. They are the republican pit bulls. There is recent evidence of Fox News complicity with the Republicans too. These two guys could make or break any republican candidate.

Why get mad? Copy what they did to get such an audience and use that against them. Be thankful and laugh at them for them doing all the hard work coming up with the idea for you. Getting mad and treating the right as the devil will only generate an end result the opposite of what you wanted.

Can business become tyrannical? I say yes and it is in the great tradition of American liberals to protect the people from it. From the trust-busting TR to the wage and price controller/universal healthcare advocate Richard Nixon, the American tradition is to preserve the fruits of our freedom for ALL Americans. Not just the wealthy. I am for preserving our traditions in government. For example those traditions that gave us the bill of rights, repealed slavery, dismissed separate but equal, gave women the vote, protected the rights of the disabled and disenfranchised. I want to preserve our government tradition of perserving our natural resources from predation and of preserving our private lives from government intrusion. Shall I go on?

I agree with all these positions. Could you define what you mean by liberal? I notice you have Teddy as an avatar and just wondering if you mean him being liberal or not.

The big question what should be done if the big business has already gained a strong hold over the government and through the media the voting public?

Good. Because they are both centrist parties and have been for 100 years. (As you indicate below.)

I think it more of the lines they became more immoral and only cared about keeping power for the last hundred years.

Well I don't know about that but I will tell you there is not much difference in their agendas. The Republicans oppose government health care prefering rather to keep it in the private sector. The democrats SAY they want government health care but when they got a chance to do it they kept health care firmly in the hands of the private sector. Why this divergence of opinion and unanimity of result? Because both parties took a fuck of a lot of money from the insurance industry to ensure that they would not upset the apple cart. They both feed at the same trough. They are both the same kinds of pigs. One is black and one is white. Both are pork.

Right which leads to my question again about what should be done about this.

[Rei Murasame]

Better start acting like a mature adult and start saving for that day then, eh?

How many people do you suppose will have the foresight and the means to do that?

Oh right, I forgot, you're an anti-nationalist, so you have no problem reducing your entire lower class to utter poverty and then watching them die of preventable illnesses even though they share proximity with you (living in the same country) and common interests (you need them to join you in working to generate capital).

Of course I'll back up that accusation:

Too much Nationalist makes you a socialist since you work for the good of the people.

Yes, Nationalists work for the good of the people, the population group, the people who live here. Is there someone else that you think we should be working for?

[DanDaMan]

DanDaMan wrote:
Better start acting like a mature adult and start saving for that day then, eh?

How many people do you suppose will have the foresight and the means to do that?

Far more than the ones relying on governments on the precipice of failing.

Oh right, I forgot, you're an anti-nationalist, so you have no problem reducing your entire lower class to utter poverty and then watching them die of preventable illnesses even though they share proximity with you (living in the same country) and common interests (you need them to join you in working to generate capital).

Umm, my "lower class" lives better than half the planet. They have cell phones, cable TV, beer and peanuts. Capitalism did that.
The only one openly in the process of destroying that quality of life for our poor is the leftist Statists.

[LetsTalkAboutIt]

DDM, I see why people are really not into what you say. You are bad as the Leftists. What is even worse a person who worships capitalism is some one who the least fit to live in such a system. Idealists rarely have the pragmatism needed to run a business.

The only reason a free market should exist is the low cost to administer and maintain it.

Welfare should be only used as a means to keep the masses sedated when the economy goes sour. When things become stable again, is when the welfare should be removed.

[DanDaMan]

DDM, I see why people are really not into what you say. You are bad as the Leftists. What is even worse a person who worships capitalism is some one who the least fit to live in such a system. Idealists rarely have the pragmatism needed to run a business.

I own and operate my own business.

The only reason a free market should exist is the low cost to administer and maintain it.

Err, no. famine has never occurred in freer market countries. Controlled markets have killed millions upon millions and even started cannibalism.

Welfare should be only used as a means to keep the masses sedated when the economy goes sour. When things become stable again, is when the welfare should be removed.

Explain to me the common sense logic of starting welfare when the country is broke and can't afford the welfare?

[Rei Murasame]

Umm, my "lower class" lives better than half the planet.

That's actually some cunning shuffling you did there, check some actual figures before trying that one on me. The American lower class poor is actually poorer than their counterparts in the rest of the industrialised world.

And not only that, you want to take away what pitiful and meagre benefits they receive, to make it a little worse.

[Meslocusist]

Oh right, I forgot, you're an anti-nationalist, so you have no problem reducing your entire lower class to utter poverty and then watching them die of preventable illnesses even though they share proximity with you (living in the same country) and common interests (you need them to join you in working to generate capital).

I'm just wondering how you reconcile this with the fact that these "anti-nationalists" are the same ultrapatriotic McCarthyist morons who encourage arrests for flag burning.

[DanDaMan]

I'm just wondering how you reconcile this with the fact that these "anti-nationalists" are the same ultrapatriotic McCarthyist morons who encourage arrests for flag burning.

I actually think flag burning as Constitutionally protected.

That's actually some cunning shuffling you did there, check some actual figures before trying that one on me. The American lower class poor is actually poorer than their counterparts in the rest of the industrialised world.

And not only that, you want to take away what pitiful and meagre benefits they receive, to make it a little worse.

Poverty in China refers to people whose income is less than the $1.25 per day poverty line (PPP) set by the World Bank. Poverty has affected all aspects of China, including the environment, health, education, housing, nutrition, and agriculture. It has disrupted families and communities, and sent millions from the poorer regions to the cities in a desperate search for work.

Since the start of far-reaching economic reforms in the late 1970s, growth has fueled a remarkable increase in per capita income and a decline in the poverty rate from 64% at the beginning of reform to 10% in 2004.

Chinas population is 1,324,655,000.
that times 10% is 132,465,500.
America has a total population of 300 million. So now one third of America is at the poverty level?

[Rei Murasame]

I'm just wondering how you reconcile this with the fact that these "anti-nationalists" are the same ultrapatriotic McCarthyist morons who encourage arrests for flag burning.

Basically because they usually won't even try to self-describe as 'nationalist', they'll instead dilute and call themselves 'patriots' (not the same thing, since anyone can wave a flag and act proud), and they'll never express a sincere interest in the issues that actually affect the people of the nation.

[Rei Murasame]

Poverty in China

I knew you'd have to resort to that, because you can't find any other country to compete with now, and that's what is referred to as "the race to the bottom". When somewhere like China becomes the benchmark, it should really be seen as a dark omen.

[LetsTalkAboutIt]

I own and operate my own business.

If thats the case, cease worshiping capitalism and participate in it instead. I suggest doing so by going back to work.

Explain to me the common sense logic of starting welfare when the country is broke and can't afford the welfare?

Ever noticed revolts or severe political unrest occurs in recessions?

Like Pre-WW2 Germany?

You know the type where the masses riot and pillage businesses?

Sometimes its a place between a rock and a hard spot.

[DanDaMan]

DanDaMan wrote:
Poverty in China

I knew you'd have to resort to that, because you can't find any other country to compete with now, and that's what is referred to as "the race to the bottom". When somewhere like China becomes the benchmark, it should really be seen as a dark omen.

Shall we compare American "poor" to India or African continent poor?

[Rei Murasame]

Shall we compare American "poor" to India or African continent poor?

Do either of those fit the normal definition of 'Industrialised'?

[DanDaMan]

DanDaMan wrote:
Shall we compare American "poor" to India or African continent poor?

Do either of those fit the normal definition of 'Industrialised'?

What... your nitpicking which "poor" of the world are eligible for your argument?
Second and third class poor are not worthy to you?

[Rei Murasame]

Second and third class poor are not worthy to you?

Well, the reason I specified 'industrialised' at the beginning, is because if you start having to compare it to developing, agrarian, or failed states, then you'd pretty much lose the argument automatically.

Saying something like "At least it's not the Gaza Strip!" is not really the best defence, is it?

[DanDaMan]

Well, the reason I specified 'industrialised' at the beginning, is because if you start having to compare it to developing, agrarian, or failed states, then you'd pretty much lose the argument automatically.

I seriously doubt you can create a long list of poor places that a poor American would give up his cell phone or cable tv to move too.

[Dr Laszlo Jamf]

I seriously doubt you can create a long list of poor places that a poor American would give up his cell phone or cable tv to move too.

Because it's the shiny gadgets that keep our poor from being truly desperate.

[Rei Murasame]

I seriously doubt you can create a long list of poor places that a poor American would give up his cell phone or cable tv to move too.

I have a feeling that if someone had to be poor, they would rather be poor and inside France, than poor and inside the United States.

[DanDaMan]

DanDaMan wrote:
I seriously doubt you can create a long list of poor places that a poor American would give up his cell phone or cable tv to move too.

Because it's the shiny gadgets that keep our poor from being truly desperate.

That and clean water, housing and food that would get you killed for in other countries.