On the Morality of a Flat Tax Rate - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#13118687
I don't see how it is possible to justify taking different percentages of a persons income based on their gross earnings. The way I see it, everyone should have the same percentage charged to them. I am not speaking from a practical standpoint, just a moral one. I don't think it is fair.

What is the argument for a separate tax rate for different income brackets? How is it justified as being fair?
User avatar
By Cartertonian
#13118780
Hello eldrad.

Best you post an introduction to yourself in the Lobby. ;)

I'm with you, though. But sadly there are plenty of ideologues on here who will insist that it's obscene for people to earn a lot of money and therefore they should be punished for their greed by having to pay proportionately much more tax than everyone else.

As far as I am concerned, a flat rate of tax is a fair tax. If tax is 10% and I earn 10000 of whatever your local currency happens to be, I pay 1000 of whatever your local currency happens to be. If you earn 100000 of whatever your local currency happens to be, you pay 10000 of whatever your local currency happens to be.

Thus you pay TEN TIMES more tax than I do.

But I'm afraid the hard-left on here can't wrap their heads around that simple premise. :roll:
By DanDaMan
#13118813
I don't see how it is possible to justify taking different percentages of a persons income based on their gross earnings. The way I see it, everyone should have the same percentage charged to them. I am not speaking from a practical standpoint, just a moral one. I don't think it is fair.

What is the argument for a separate tax rate for different income brackets? How is it justified as being fair?

It's not fair because Leftists are STATISTS.
They put the individual AFTER the "collective".
What you work hard for is not really yours... it belongs to them.
User avatar
By Cartertonian
#13118861
DanDaMan wrote:It's not fair because Leftists are STATISTS.
They put the individual AFTER the "collective".
What you work hard for is not really yours... it belongs to them.
:roll:
C'mon Dan, don't you know any other tunes?

:hmm:
By PBVBROOK
#13118955
Statist is a word that dan thinks makes him sound smart. He actually rarely uses it correctly.

I favor a flat tax or a consumption tax such as a VAT or both.

I have heard it said that a flat tax is progressive because it still charges the wealthy more for the same theoretical services than it does the poor. The argument could easily be made that a rich person should pay no more than a poor one for the maintenance of the national parks for example. They both get the same potential benefit.

In the US we have such a complicated system of credits and deductions that the actual percentage of income paid can have little resemblence to the amount earned. For example. We allow a tax deduction for the mortgage interest on our homes. If we are to try to get to a more fair tax code this should be dropped. That would be very unpopular.

I think that it is a mistake to believe that liberals are hung up on taxing the wealthy more than their fair share. I think the real issue is one of fairness. As our country matures we are seeing a greater concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and the loss of our middle class. (Working class.) We find that big business is exporting jobs, importing workers and reducing benefits to the detriment of the working class folks. If the wealthy had kept the faith, so to speak, with the middle class there would be less traction for taking the money away from them.

Something like this. John owns a company with 500 workers. These workers are paid a good wage and have benefits. John exports 400 of those jobs to China forcing the workers into low paying service industry jobs. John makes even more money than before but it is in the hands of one person and 400 people are virtually impoverished. It is hard to have any sympathy for John. Someone has to provide services for the 400 idled workers AND we loose the tax revenue from them as well. Needless to say if you ask any one of those 400 workers what they think the solution should be there will be little doubt that they will favor taxing John's ass off. Besides. Some would say that a higher marginal tax rate for the wealthy encourages investment to avoid income and that this investment benefits all of us. It is sort of like getting them coming and going.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#13118964
It depends on the society. In a society in which the social hierarchy is perceived to be unjust (for example, Britain or some third-world shithole), then it is the class hierarchy which is perceived to be the immoral oppression, and a progressive tax system is regarded as the means by which this immoral oppression can be ameliorated. On the other hand, in a society in which the social hierarchy is perceived to be fair and just (for example, America), then it is the progressive tax system which is perceived to be the immoral oppression and a flat tax rate is regarded as the means by which this immoral oppression can be ameliorated. Needless to say, I side with the first viewpoint and not the second. Your own mileage may vary. You pays your money and you takes your choice.... :D
By DanDaMan
#13118966
PBVBROOK wrote:You will get absolutely no sympathy from me for the boss' argument that it is his money to do with as he pleases. I will tax him to do the right thing in a hot minute.

You are a statist. PERIOD.
User avatar
By RonPaulalways
#13118974
A flat tax is the fairest and simplest tax structure. One possible exception to this is if a society has a legal/political structure that unfairly rewards the rich at the expense of the rest of the population, in which case a higher tax rate for the rich would alleviate that. As a matter of principle though, I oppose wealth redistribution as a tool for ameliorating injustice because it is a blunt instrument that punishes many innocent individuals (i.e. those that didn't become wealthy due to special legal/political privileges), and because it is a slippery slope to class warfare and targeting the rich as an easy source of tax revenues.
By Wolfman
#13118978
Why do people bring morality into economics? Economics is based on the assumption that people are rational and act in there own self interest, it has nothing to do with morality, which is an abstract concept with more of a philosophical meaning.
User avatar
By Dr House
#13118984
I would consider that the income tax in general is immoral as it represents the confiscation of the fruits of one's labor (which makes one a slave as the classical definition of 'free' is one which owns his own labor), so if you're gonna have an income tax at all it should be for porely pragmatic reasons. A progressive income tax collects revenue much more efficiently than a flat one.

As for an utilitarian argument, diminishing marginal utility means that a wealthier person will suffer less from each additional dollar subtracted from their income than a poorer person, so a flat tax will be regressive in terms of utility (it will make poor people suffer more than rich people).
By Wolfman
#13118985
^ House, isn't part of the reason you hate women is that they are more likely to base oppions off emotion? Then why the hell would you of all people start using morality as a justification for an economic oppion, when morality is as much emotional as it is rational?
User avatar
By Todd D.
#13119053
Economics is based on the assumption that people are rational and act in there own self interest, it has nothing to do with morality, which is an abstract concept with more of a philosophical meaning.

Why are you assuming that it is not "In their own self interest" to act morally?

Besides, your claim that "economics is based on the assumption that people are rational" is absolutely false. That's like saying "Physics is based on the assumption that all things fall in a vacuum". Sure, maybe in middle school Econ 101 that might be the case, but it's not true for the overall science of Economics.
By eldrad
#13119163
Wow, I am very impressed by the response!

I don't think that it is possible to separate economics and morality. The question which should be behind taxation is "How much do we have the right to take from the individual?", not "how much do we need?". Now of course, a major part in deciding how much we have the right to take is how much society needs to maintain a high standard of government service for everyone.

I am still not sure where I stand on limited wealth redistrobution. I could understand lowering taxes, temporarily, on a community or group of people who have just undergone a major disaster (economic, natural etc...), but I would like to see it returned to the flat rate as soon as is compassionately possible.
User avatar
By Dr House
#13119211
eldrad wrote:I don't think that it is possible to separate economics and morality. The question which should be behind taxation is "How much do we have the right to take from the individual?", not "how much do we need?".

From that perspective we don't have a right to confiscate the just compensation of a man's labor--period, as this is tantamount to slavery. Therefore, we morally do not have a right to charge an earned income tax at all. However,abolishing the income tax without replacing it is not practical, so it should become a goal of government policy, rather than government policy itself.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#13119279
I don't see how it is possible to justify taking different percentages of a persons income based on their gross earnings.

I can make it a lot easier for you.

Flat tax is moral if flat income is moral.

If everyone receives approximately the same income, then they should - morally - pay around the same tax rate.

On the other hand, if I earn five million times as much currency as my neighbour, it may be time to start thinking about the morality of our income distribution system. Is starvation really its objective?
By stopher3
#13119385
I think that the idea of a flat tax scheme is ridiculous. I used to share the opinion that tax should be a consistent, flat rate regardless of income, so as not to punish those who chose to work hard. Then I realized that this assumes people can make (and earn) an infinite amount of money without consequence to others, which simply isn't true given our economic system. This can be illustrated by imagining the CEO and the laborer (guy making minimum wage.) When the CEO gets paid a half million dollars a year that is (supposed to be) a reflection of his time and effort, thus when he goes to the store to buy milk he is willing to pay much more (as a reflection of time/$) than the day laborer who makes $20,000 a year for the same product thereby driving cost of living out of the range of the day laborer.
Not only is the pay disparity effecting the supply demand curve unfavorably for most Americans, who I am sure make less than a $100,000 a year, it also illustrates the pure ridiculousness of the assumption that people can justifiably earn that much money, as it is essentially saying that the time of the day laborer is not only worth less (justifiable) but exponentially less than that of the CEO. If someone can defend their efforts being 100x or even 1000x that of another person I'd love to hear it. You just can't work that hard. People take far too much credit for what they "earn" in this country. This is where tax comes in. When a CEO or investor or whatever makes a decision which leads a company to make millions of dollars they feel they deserve a piece proportional to that sum, regardless of actual work put in or the fact that many other people could have made the same decision, when really that money is owed to sustaining the system (i.e. taxes) which made that possible. You pay taxes to the country you live in because a considerable amount of upkeep is necessary to make it possible for you to make an income. This should be true for both the rich and the poor.
I propose that tax should be entirely progressive and determined as a function of pay disparity, thereby decreasing the tax on the rich when pay disparity approaches a given distribution. Such a system would inherently prevents people from making infinite money (i don't mean that literally.) Pay should be a reflection of work and investment and the current tax structure hardly facilitates that. On the contrary it actually exacerbates the pay disparity (you can see this in action by simply looking at how the gap between rich and poor has only increased over the last 60 years - as long as such stats have been taken) due to the fact that once a person reaches the flat portion of the tax (i.e. over $250,000 a year) they can simply start reinvesting these sums as they are being asked to pay less tax as a function of their income. Hence, by flattening out at that point the dwork/dincentive ratio (d's denoting delta or change) becomes more favorable than for those of us at the lower end of the bracket. That is, it is easier for a millionaire to increase their fortune relative to the amount of work put in than it is for the vegetable farmer. This is totally backwards. Rich people can put in small amounts of work for huge amounts of gain whereas poor people have to put in a huge amount of work for a small improvement in lifestyle. The reason for a progressive tax structure, which for some reason stops at around $250,000, is that as I mentioned earlier everyone's income/spending is intertwined and I have no doubt that our forefather's understood this when the progressive tax scheme was instated. With the growth our economy has had over the last hundred years I guarantee that this phenomenon has not gone away. Thus to account for this entanglement it has to become increasingly difficult to increase ones net income because infinite money simply does not exist, as money is a reflection of work and completely relative. Now, I know there are a lot of people who freak out at the idea of a progressive tax scheme because they are afraid of not having enough incentive to work harder when the reality is they are already trapped in one. Unfortunately it is one that keeps everyone in check except for the rich. If the progressive nature of our current tax scheme were extended to the rich 90% of the country would inherently pay less taxes as total tax revenue is essentially obtained by integrating the tax curve. Also, the work/incentive ratio will become more evenly distributed rather than favoring the rich, allowing lower and middle income workers to advance more easily. Now, a flat tax scheme as I have explained is simply out of the question due to the dynamics of an economy and the fact that infinite money/work simply doesn't exist and economists have understood this for over a hundred years. The real question is simply whether or not the rich should have to play by the same game as the rest of us. Those of you who think tax reform as I have described is bad idea need to consider how your situation would actually be better off (assuming you're not making over a quarter million dollars a year) if our progressive taxing scheme were extended to the super rich.
Thank you.
User avatar
By Dr House
#13119419
Well there's no starvation going on in my country, yours, or his, so your last sentence was moot.
By DanDaMan
#13119631
I can make it a lot easier for you.

Flat tax is moral if flat income is moral.

If everyone receives approximately the same income, then they should - morally - pay around the same tax rate.

On the other hand, if I earn five million times as much currency as my neighbour, it may be time to start thinking about the morality of our income distribution system. Is starvation really its objective?

Edited

The above is absurd.
It completely ignores the reality of how each individual is motivated differently and on different levels.
Maybe if we were all ants or termites in a mound you would have a point.... but that's not the real world. It's fantasy where unicorns and fairies fly around.
Last edited by DanDaMan on 06 Aug 2009 17:14, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Nandi
#13119786
DanDaMan you are absurd, that argument is gibberish to all but you.

In my eyes a flat tax rate is indeed morally the most correct way to tax.
As others have suggested a flat tax rate is even progressive in a way since the absolute contributive value of the rich to the state, would far outweigh the return in state services.

I also suspect it is likely she contracted the fun[…]

That is what the current elite are doing in the U[…]

"The encampment was set up in the main quad o[…]

White males who opt not to go to college in field[…]