[Gletkin]

Colombia's Security Forces Investigated for 3000 Extrajudicial Killings
by Adriaan Alselma
Colombia Reports
Aug. 13, 2012

Members of Colombia's security forces are under investigation for the extrajudicial execution of almost 3,000 civilians, the Prosecutor General's Office said Monday.

Until June 1, 1,882 members of the security forces had been charged with the murder of 2,984 civilians, a prosecution spokesman told Colombia Reports.

Since the scandal broke in late 2008, an additional 216 members of the security forces have been sentenced for the murder of 523 civilians who, after being killed, were dressed up and registered as guerrillas, said the official.

According to the spokeman, the Prosecutor General's Office's Human Rights unit still has 1,608 cases against one or more state officials open.

The massive killing of civilians by the security forces forced former President Alvaro Uribe and his then-Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos to purge the military command while civilian courts were given jurisdiction over alleged "false positives" cases previously handled by military tribunals.

I think Santos has been more genuine with his attempts to institutionalize respect for human rights.
Uribe's been a complete ass and has openly harangued Santos with the same old hardline hawk rhetoric of being "soft", and "overly concerned" with human rights, even though winning hearts and minds are important to any counter-insurgency campaign. Not to mention that whole "freedom" and "democracy" thing.

Uribe's hardline rhetoric, especially when he resorts to hyperbole such as basically accusing human-rights organizations of being guerrilla sympathizers, just confirms his image of the fascist bogeyman as painted by guerrilla propaganda and helps legitimize their excuses to continue with violent rebellion.

Of course, all those human-rights investigations keep proving Uribe's detractors right about his govt.'s connections to death squads and (mis)use of the old DAS to harass dissent.
But seeing all these individuals who wielded great power under the status quo finally being made to answer for what they did helps lend credence to govt. attempts to reform. Are they perfect? Maybe not. But they're not just empty promises either.

[Magnetonium]

I think it was Chavez who ordered the killings. He is behind all the evil in the region, absolutely all of it. Those damn communists.

[Social_Critic]

Nah, you know, this year over 500 people have died in Venezuelan jails, shot, burned, blown up with hand grenades, thrown from the roof, you name it. This weekend 25 died at Yare I. The jail population in Venezuela is about 10 times what the jails were designed for, and the jails today are controlled by "Pranes", inmates who are armed to the teeth. Jail sections are controlled by different Pranes gangs, who have to negotiate to allow goods to flow from one part of the jail to the other, and so on. The Yare I incident happened when two gangs were meeting to discuss something, and one of the pranes fired a shot by accident, this led to a shootout, and 25 killed thus far, including a jail visitor. The latest news on the Yare I event is that the inmates have about 900 women hostage inside the prison. Apparently they had some kind of arrangement to let over 1000 women in over the weekend (must have been one hell of an orgy). When the shooting started, they put the women away, and very few managed to get out of the jail.

Meanwhile leftoids try to make hay out of 3000 innocent people killed in Colombia in more of a decade of inhumane civil war. So if Colombia is so bad, how come more people die murdered in Venezuela nowadays? Or maybe when a person dies murdered or shot in jail, or killed by cops like Karen Berendique, in a country you think is ruled by a proper communist then it's OK?

[Gletkin]

Meanwhile leftoids try to make hay out of 3000 innocent people killed in Colombia in more of a decade of inhumane civil war

Murdering innocents is very much hay-worthy material however. Whereever there are conflicts where both sides at least pay lip service to "human rights" such atrocities are freebies served on a platter to the opposition.
Hopefully Santos does a better job of cleaning up the security forces than his predecessors.
I remember reading of how Pastrana sacked a number of officers and NCOs found guilty of using or collaborating with rightist paramilitaries. Yet, as soon as they were fired they promptly joined said paramilitaries where they were not only allowed to continue to make a living by what they knew best...this time they were members of organizations that truly cared not one whit about "human rights" and were actually paid better to boot.

As for the prison chaos and rampant lethal police vigilantism....that actually already existed in Venezuela before Chavez. As well as Brazil and Colombia (lethal police vigilantism that is). One of Peru's largest prisons I understand has also been effectively controlled by its own inmates for decades.
That's the thing...Chavez promised sweeping changes. But in addition to new policies that ended up being failures, Venezuelans also got more of the same of the old Venezuela that was outright awful.

[Social_Critic]

As for the prison chaos and rampant lethal police vigilantism....that actually already existed in Venezuela before Chavez.

The level of crime, the overcrowding, and the lethality of the jails in Venezuela have increased nearly five fold during Chavez' tenure. I realize many of like to apologize for Chavez' incompetence, venality, corruption, and sheer stupidity, but I assure you, the apologies won't wash. And your statistics are lacking - you talk but you can't produce anything to back yourselves up.

What is going on in Venezuela right now is atrocious, it's scandalous, what's going on borders on a crime against humanity.

[wat0n]

Awful, those numbers equal the death toll under Pinochet's dictatorship.

Hopefully Santos' administration and Colombia's justice system will adequately punish those who murdered these people, especially now that the FARC and other similar groups have become much weaker and the security situation has improved.

[Social_Critic]

Yes, I agree. The FARC is weakening, and as they do, the government will be making amends. This is fairly easy for Santos to do, because he's not associated with the earlier crimes. What's really sad is that the extrajudicial kilings fueled the FARC, so they were counterproductive. Many people don't realize it, but today civilians and government forces are moving in areas where 10 years ago it was completely impossible to go. The key has been both military effectiveness and also the improving economy - Colombia has been growing its economy quite well, and associated with this is a drop in crime and overall violence.

[Gletkin]

I realize many of like to apologize for Chavez' incompetence, venality, corruption, and sheer stupidity, but I assure you, the apologies won't wash. And your statistics are lacking - you talk but you can't produce anything to back yourselves up.

Not totally sure who the "you" and "your" is that you're addressing. Myself in particular or "Chavistas"?

Hopefully Santos' administration and Colombia's justice system will adequately punish those who murdered these people, especially now that the FARC and other similar groups have become much weaker and the security situation has improved.

Improved security+improved economy (but one that soon benefits the great majority of the people)+a justice system that actually works.
If Santos can keep all these coming this will be the 123 combo that will finally knockout the insurgency.
Unless the guerrillas finally wise up and follow M-19's example. Otherwise they'll either fade away into oblivion or split up into criminal gangs that finally drops all political pretenses.

[Social_Critic]

Gletkin, i was talking to you. You apologized for Chavez saying things were bad before Chavez took over. That's the line issued by the Chavez regime to its overseas followers. Chavez has a propaganda machine run by Eva Golinger, an American chick who has Venezuelan nationality now, she speaks Spanish with a very heavy accent, you may see her in pro-Chavez interviews once in a while (try Eva Golinger You Tube to see what comes out). The Chavez mantras are issued to the followershp, approximately 100 of them are on the direct payroll (such as Mark Weidsbrodt). The apologies are all in synch, and none of them hold water.

Their lines are so constant, and so similar, I sat in court in the European Union and saw a Chavista lawyer bring up exactly the same lines you did. So to me it's evident it comes from Eva. Say hello to her if you know her, and tell her I'm laughing my arse off watching Chavez' court fall apart as they struggle for position to replace him after he dies of cancer.

[Gletkin]

Gletkin, i was talking to you. You apologized for Chavez saying things were bad before Chavez took over. That's the line issued by the Chavez regime to its overseas followers.

That's interesting, as you've apparently completely overlooked what I also said:

Chavez promised sweeping changes. But in addition to new policies that ended up being failures, Venezuelans also got more of the same of the old Venezuela that was outright awful.

Yes, that's such a ringing endorsement for Chavez! Exactly what's preached by Golinger and her "companeros" right?
Yes, Venezuela did have problems before Chavez took over....that was how he came to power in the first place.
Propaganda often makes use of facts...it's often more effective than using whole-spun lies. So if Chavistas note that sometimes the sky is blue agreeing with that makes us "apologists"?

This is the second time you've blasted me for utterly ridiculous reasons. The first time was stupid enough but this second time is even worse. I'm a "Chavista" for noting that certain problems already existed before Chavez and grew worse since he's been in power!? At this point, I don't see any real difference between you and the "red fascists" you say you oppose regarding political dogma and intolerance...you both exhibit authoritarian tendencies needlessly denouncing people for perceived offenses.

[Donna]

Social_Critic will lie through his teeth to alienate someone he disagrees with. This is the classic behavior of a political thug.

[Gletkin]

What's so confusing though is what exactly does he disagree with me here?
Is he seriously going to deny that police vigilantism did not exist in pre-Chavez Venezuela? What would be the point since this phenomenon drastically increased under Chavez?

It's as if saying that acknowledgment of poverty and oppression in Russia before Nov. 7th, 1917 was "apologia for Bolshevism"!

[Social_Critic]

Venezuelans also got more of the same of the old Venezuela that was outright awful

This is the problem - Venezuelans didn't get more of the same of the old Venezuela, things got a lot worse. When murder rates quadruple, it's not more of the same. This is the old apologia and coverup technique we get from chavistas posting all over the internet - things are the same, things didn't get worse under Chavez...but they did. The only thing Chavez had going for him was that oil prices increased enormously under his tenure, so this allowed him to finance Castro's gulag regime, buy a lot of useless weapons, and subsidize the lousy economy his mixture of communism and fascism has created. But even with the country getting four to five times the cash flow per barrel of oil, Chavez' governance is so terrible, the country is spinning down into hell.

And yes, I will object and complain if you try to say it's the same, because it's not. What I can't really fathom is why some people still think Chavez is anything but one of the biggest bastards to ever walk the planet. The man is a megalomaniac, he's a criminal, surrounds himself with criminals and incompetents.

How many people have to die before you get it?

[Gletkin]

When murder rates quadruple, it's not more of the same.

That's exactly what it means. More means precisely that, greater.
Which is much more damning for someone who promised positive change.

And yes, I will object and complain if you try to say it's the same, because it's not.

Jesus effin' Christ I said MORE of the same which it is!!
In other words, you will continue to alienate and antagonize real and potential allies with idiotic bullshit like this, calling them "Chavistas" as the cherry-on-the-top.

Chavez could use more people like you in the opposition.

[Social_Critic]

Gletkin, I suppose you're not a native English speaker. In English, more of the same means the same. If you want to express that things got worse, then you have to say something like "He promised to improve things but instead they got worse".

FYI, statistically speaking, poverty did go down, but this was largely due to the increase in oil prices. Venezuelan governments have a lot more flexibility to deal with poverty when oil prices take a huge jump like they did. The commodity boom also reduced poverty in other nations as well, so this isn't unique to Venezuela. On the other hand, under Chavez crime has become epidemic, corruption has increased markedly, and infrastructure has decayed. Today Venezuela is a garbage strewn country with frequent power cuts, deteriorating water supply, collapsing bridges and road infrastructure, poor education, a fleeing professional and middle class, much higher incidence of human rights abuses, jails which are truly dantesque and where prisoners are dying in very large numbers, and foreign debt which looks increasingly unpayable (which is the reason why Venezuelan bonds have near junk status).

The only thing Chavez did improve was government weaponry. They spent huge sums buying Russian, Belarussian and other former Soviet Union weapons, including heavy tanks, Sukhoi fighters, missiles, helicopters, you name it. What is this for? Chavez is a fascist, and fascist like to have a strong military. It's not like he's going to invade anybody, and nobody is going to invade Venezuela anyway. So it's all wasted.

[Pants-of-dog]

Gletkin, I suppose you're not a native English speaker.

Are you?

FYI, statistically speaking, poverty did go down,.... So it's all wasted.

Does this have anything to do with the topic?

[Social_Critic]

I'm not a native, of course. But my command of the English language is far superior to most natives' - I had the highest verbal SAT in my High School when I took it.

What does this have to do with the OP? Many of us feel it's a good thing that Colombia is trying to improve its human rights record. I applaud this move, which I said was in part due to the FARC's ongoing defeat. Also mentioned that Venezuela had a similar problem now, with a huge number of prisoners dying in overcrowded jails. I didn't mention it but extrajuicial killings are also increasing. The country is undergoing a crime wave the likes of which I've never seen.

I criticized Gletkin because he/she said things in Venezuela were pretty much the same as before - as if conditions today were comparable to conditions say 15 years ago, before Chavez took over. But they are not. This is a fact many leftists deny, or try to cover up. Some of the denial and cover up material is sourced by a group headed by Eva Golinger, a pseudo Venezuelan (really an American commie who is Chavez' groupie). Eva runs the Engllish cyberwar and propaganda machine, and pays off the people who write letters on Chavez' behalf, and the newsmen who write pro-Chavez articles. The most prominent of these is Mark Weisbrodt at the Guardian, the guy is a Chavez apologist to the max, some of what he writes is pure garbage.

But the really interesting thing is that we see these mantras appear repeatedly and in different circumstances. I saw a Venezuelan lawyer in an European court defend Venezuela's record using pretty much the same words Gletkin used. I even wonder if Gletkin isn't this chick's friend?

[Gletkin]

Gletkin, I suppose you're not a native English speaker. In English, more of the same means the same.

I am a native speaker and I think it was pretty clear what I meant.
Had you truly read my posts in their entirety, there's absolutely no excuse....none....to go off half-cocked and brand me some kind of Golingerite-Chavista. Native anglophone or not.

You claim to be some sort of partisan on behalf of freedom, but your behavior is more like the caudillisimo you claim to oppose: full of dogma and arrogance. If people don't quite agree with or understand what you say or claim, they must be ignorant and not worth talking to. Or you zero in on one fucking phrase, ignore the rest of the post and jump to some insane conclusion that they must be Chavez cheerleaders.

We're just individual foreigners commenting on Venezuela. For their own sake, I hope the opposition there doesn't share your attitudes. If they do, then they're no real alternative to Chavez.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm not a native, of course. But my command of the English language is far superior to most natives' - I had the highest verbal SAT in my High School when I took it.

This was in Cuba, right?

I had no idea that Cuba used US tests. How odd. But anyways, I am glad that you agree that the issue of whether or not Gletkin is a native speaker is irrelevant.

What does this have to do with the OP? Many of us feel it's a good thing that Colombia is trying to improve its human rights record. I applaud this move, which I said was in part due to the FARC's ongoing defeat.

Do you have any evidence that this is due to the FARC defeat?

[Social_Critic]

This was in Cuba, right?

Wrong.

Do you have any evidence that this is due to the FARC defeat?

Yes.

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