[Pants-of-dog]

He had to go to hospital. That sort of violence can result in fatalities. If Antifa were as harmless as you are trying to claim, Andy Ngo should have been able to walk right through the crowd without issues.

He chose to go to the hospital. One of your colleagues already posted a picture with the few cuts and bruises Ngo had, and it did not require a hospital visit.

Do you agree that by your logic, all the hate groups that have committed violence are terrorists? Yes or no?

Sure

Breitbart is untrustworthy, so I had to do a little digging. Let us look at the first one:

Keith Campbell is a far right blogger who went to Berkeley in order to get into a fight with antifa.

According to his own words, he wanted antifa there “so we can kick their asses again”.

Is the rest if your list also people who specifically picked a fight and lost?

[url]https://www.dailywire.com/news/20343/timeline-antifa-violence-january-–-august-2017-frank-camp[/url]

A 2017 timeline. Why do Antifa attack gays and trans people so much? Possibly because they are weedy white middle class blowhards that can’t beat up anyone stronger? This also explains why they haven’t killed anyone yet, though not for want of trying.

These are both right wing sources though. There doesn’t seem to be any neutral source. The ADL comes closest, and they condemn Antifa violence.

I am not going to address your insults.

If you have actual arguments to make, please do so.

They have threatened to lock everyone inside and burn the place down.

No, one of your brethren already claimed that and was unable to support that claim.

As far as I can tell, the organisers are the only ones who are claiming that antifa threatened them, and since they seemed to have already lied about their conference, I see no reason to take them at their word.

Only in your own mind.

I am not going to address your insults.

If you have actual arguments to make, please do so.

No you haven’t. I am still waiting for you to demonstrate the conference attendees have anything to do with far right ethno-supremacists or ecofacists.

Considering the fact that no one has been able to present anyone opposed to racism as a speaker or panellist, the case has already been made.

—————————

All actions during wartime by legal and properly uniformed combatants fall outside the definition of terrorism.

So we agree that not all political violence is terrorism.

That is correct, judging by their own desire to ‘fight’ fascism with their fists.

So, anyone who wants to fight fascists is now a terrorist?

Warfare is not terrorism. Secondly, when soldiers fight in a war it’s not politically motivated per se anyway.

Yes, it is inherently political.

[skinster]

[Aexodus]

So, anyone who wants to fight fascists is now a terrorist?

Yes. A group that wants to use violence with the goal or objective of defeating Fascism is a terrorist organisation. Same goes for defeating Communism, Liberalism, Republicanism, Nationalism etc.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Aexodus

So, white supremacist organisations and groups are terrorists?

[Aexodus]

Yes absolutely if they want to use violence to achieve their goals.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes absolutely if they want to use violence to achieve their goals.

What about homophobic bullies?

They are using violence to intimidate a whole group of people and it is a political goal insofar as the idea is to make LGBT people into second class citizens.

[Aexodus]

Hmm I’mm not sure about bullies, but generally yes if they fit this definition:

The term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.

For example:

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-05-30/hom ... tack-plot/

Social media posts to far-right pages revealed he was intent on “going to war” and wanted to “slaughter every single one of the gay b******s”.

Following a trial at Leeds Crown Court, the then-20-year-old was convicted of preparing an act of terrorism, making threats to kill and possessing an explosive substance in suspicious circumstances.

Officers discovered that, as well as researching firearms, he had also looked into methods for making a bomb.

Jurors were told how Stables, who had been diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome prior to his arrest, promoted homophobic, racist and Nazi views online.

Through his phone, he supposedly communicated his hatred for Muslims and Jews, with one WhatsApp message reading: “My country is being raped.

“I might just become a skinhead and kill people.”

As you can see he was intending to carry out an act of terrorism against gays.

[Pants-of-dog]

Hmm I’mm not sure about bullies, but generally yes if they fit this definition:


For example:

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-05-30/hom ... tack-plot/


As you can see he was intending to carry out an act of terrorism against gays.

Forgive me for being impolite. I have not welcomed you to the forum. Welcome.

To quote someone’s post, the easiest thing to do is to click on the little image of a speech balloon in the top right hand corner of their post.

You can also do this from the page where you type the post, in the thread review section. Each post also has that little speech balloon.

Anyway, back to the topic.

There is a significant difference between the bullies and the man accumulating weapons and explosives and preparing an attack: premeditation.

The bullies and antifa are not planning on killing anyone. They are not even sure they will have an opportunity for violence. The violence they do enact is spontaneous.

[BigSteve]

They are not even sure they will have an opportunity for violence. The violence they do enact is spontaneous.

It could be argued, though, that if the violence they enact is spontaneous, then the opportunity for violence always exists...

[Aexodus]

There is a significant difference between the bullies and the man accumulating weapons and explosives and preparing an attack: premeditation.

The bullies and antifa are not planning on killing anyone. They are not even sure they will have an opportunity for violence. The violence they do enact is spontaneous.

I would personally contest that. Why would they wear masks to protect their identity if the violence is purely spontaneous?

[SpecialOlympian]

Oh wow who would have ever thought. Andy Ngo is a disengenuous shithead who knowingly decided to not report on Patriot Prayer members, many of whom now face felony charges, planning to attack people right in front of him.

Gosh, I thought he was some kind of citizen journalist and not a rightwing grifter and fash sympathizer.

Ben says that he paused his livestream to call Cider Riot and warn the staff about Patriot Prayer’s planned visit.

For the next 20 minutes, Ben films as the group loiters a few blocks away from Cider Riot, waiting for [Joey] Gibson to show up.

As the group waits, they discuss their weaponry. A few men try to guess which way the wind's blowing to avoid getting "spray" in their eyes, presumably when they use it against members of antifa. Another man holds a thick wooden dowel, and practices swinging it like a baseball bat. A woman carries a red brick in her hand. Some don goggles, helmets, and tactical gloves.

"Who's texting Joey?" Someone asks when the group seems to be without a game plan. Another man says, “Tell Joey and them to hurry the fuck up.”

Ben captures someone telling a person on speakerphone, "There's going to be a huge fight," and gives them directions to Cider Riot.

Ngo doesn’t film any of the conversations, and smiles when the group cracks jokes.

“He overheard everything,” Ben recalls, “and said nothing.”

As soon as Gibson appears with Adams, the group walks the remaining blocks to Cider Riot. People sitting on the cidery’s patio, many of them dressed in all black (a tactic called “black bloc,” used by some anti-fascists), appear prepared. What happened next was May Day’s headline-maker: A massive street brawl instigated by members of Patriot Prayer, featuring oddly structured fist fights in a haze of pepper spray and name-calling.

[BigSteve]

I would personally contest that. Why would they wear masks to protect their identity if the violence is purely spontaneous?

Because they're cowardly little fucks, that's why...

[BigSteve]

Oh wow who would have ever thought. Andy Ngo is a disengenuous shithead who knowingly decided to not report on Patriot Prayer members, many of whom now face felony charges, planning to attack people right in front of him.

Gosh, I thought he was some kind of citizen journalist and not a rightwing grifter and fash sympathizer.

Of course, that entire essay is from the perspective of an admitted liar, so fuck him.

It's nice, though, that after one of his pussy friends took out a woman with a baton that he used harsh language to admonish the attacker: “It’s time to leave, guys,” Ben is heard yelling at the group after one man—later identified as Ian Kramer—used a baton to knock a woman out cold. “Calm your shit!”

How brave, these little bitches...

[SpecialOlympian]

You're angry at the guy who spied on Patriot Prayer because he lied? Ok, odd choice, but whatever.

[BigSteve]

You're angry at the guy who spied on Patriot Prayer because he lied? Ok, odd choice, but whatever.

Did I say I was angry at him?

He's a liar. He admitted that, and I was just reiterating that...

[SpecialOlympian]

The "Fuck him" part for spying on a violent group of far right extremists and sharing their plans to commit acts of violence made it sound like you were angry. It's also just a weird position to take.

[BigSteve]

The "Fuck him" part for spying on a violent group of far right extremists and sharing their plans to commit acts of violence made it sound like you were angry. It's also just a weird position to take.

So, he spies on a violent group of right wing extremists for a group of violent left wing extremists and I'm supposed to think he's a good guy?

[Aexodus]

What does Andy Ngo’s lack of integrity have to do with Antifa being anti-democratic?

[Pants-of-dog]

It could be argued, though, that if the violence they enact is spontaneous, then the opportunity for violence always exists...

And?

This is an obvious truism that does not help the debate move forward.

I would personally contest that. Why would they wear masks to protect their identity if the violence is purely spontaneous?

To protect themselves from being doxxed or otherwise harassed by cops and fascists.

I believe Ngo has already doxxed some of them.

[SpecialOlympian]

So, he spies on a violent group of right wing extremists for a group of violent left wing extremists and I'm supposed to think he's a good guy?

Yeah, people who do things to mitigate fascist violence are good people.

But what I had asked is you why you were angry about someone "lying" to Patriot Prayer, as if he had somehow failed his moral obligation to a group of violent thugs who regularly visit random cities for the express purpose of attacking people.

What does Andy Ngo’s lack of integrity have to do with Antifa being anti-democratic?

Seeing as he is regularly brought up as a victim of antifa it's relevant. His entire career is based on selling outrage porn depicting antifa as violent, but he edits his videos to give that impression and hangs out with violent fascist groups.

Also the idea that antifa ought to be democratic (or rather supportive of democratic principles, the thread title is moronic) when its reason for existing is: "Defend your town against violent nazis who come here to start shit" is a rather pointless criticism. But that's what we have come to expect from Doug64: the "free speech" of nazis, as expressed through violence and intimidation, is sacrosanct and everyone should just lie down and take it.