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By DTguitarist99
#207436
That is the very same reasoning the fascists exercised among the populations of the occupied countries; "the reason for your suffering are these partisan activities (not occupation)". But the responsible was always the fascist invaders, while the struggle of the partisans was just.


Had those countries occupied by fascist aggressors fought back by murdering civilians, they would not have been justified in doing so. Their cause is just, but that does not justify murder. In the case of Germany occupying France in WWII, had the majority of the French supported and used terrorism against their occupiers, both sides would have been wrong. Israel is not a fascist country, but the majority of palestinians do support terrorism. This makes their fight against Israel wrong. It would be different if the majority of palestinians did not support and denounced terror as a method of waging war against Israel. Then the argument that they are responsible for their own suffering would be flawed. The argument of fascist countries that the people they oppressed were responsible for their suffering was flawed because I don't think the occupied people supported terror against the fascists. However the Israeli argument that palestinians are responsible for their own suffering is valid, since a recent poll showed that 75.3% of palestinians support the continuation of the Initifada in its current form, and a poll in 2001 showed that 64% support suicide bombing.

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2003/no48.htm

A people who overwhelming support terrorism, and are fully aware that there will be retaliation that causes Palestinian deaths, are responsible for both the Israeli and palestinian deaths (as long as Israel tried to keep those civilian causalties low). Is a murderer responsible for his own death by execution or is the state responisble for executing him? If that person murdered knowing he would be punished by death, he is responsible for his death and the death of the person he murdered. I think there is hope for the Palestinians, but right now the majority support murder, and they should only blame themselves for the retaliation from that murder.

The responsible is the settler-state of "Israel" and US which supports this artificial outpost. It's hypocritical to point at "Palestinian terrorism".


Those responisble are anti-semitic arab terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, and Arab dictatorships. The Palestinians were never a people, they are the same ethnically as Arabs and they never complained when Arab states ruled over them. It was never the palestinians land to begin with, it was always owned by either European imperialists or Arab dictators foreign to the palestinian area. Palestinans should have welcomed having a democracy instead of a dictatorship when Israel was created, and many did. There are millions of Arab-Israelis who did just that, and are fairly represented and rarely excersise their right to protest against the Israelis because they don't have much to complain about. The other palestinians fled an imminent war and became refugees. The Arab states should have tried to improve their condition, but instead they kept the refugees where they were for their propaganda war against Israel. The palestinians then started to claim their own state after the West Bank and Gaza Strip were taken by Israel. They have a legitimate claim, since they did not want to participate in the Israeli democracy. However they destroyed any hope for such a state by supporting terrorism. Isreal and the US were never responsible for their terrorism, they support it themselves.


Sure, the Zionists don't like Palestinian terrorist attacks. But they would be even less happy to see organised guerrilla warfare. What really drives them berserk are guerrilla-style attacks on military targets. So, moving from terrorist tactics to other guerrilla tactics would only escalate the situation.


I don't care whether they'd be happy or not, only if they're justified or not. If palestinians used guerilla warfare only and not terrorism, the whole affair would be nothing more than a land dispute with no one side more justified than the other. I think the Palestinians would have a right to a state, but the land is also legally owned by Israel.

No. I would support Palestinians even if they didn't use terrorism.


But the fact that you do support them even as terrorist-supporters, shows that you have been subject to terrorist propaganda. You accept the Arab spin on the situation, without realizing that you are being duped by terrorists in their propaganda war.

As I said, it's not about terror but Palestinian resistance in general. Surely my country would do the same... For example if our army was occupying areas belonging to the so-called 'Great-Finland' and if armed resistance on the part of the population would arise. It would be retaliated, irrespective of the forms of resistance.


And then it would be a land dispute where neither side was more justified, as I said before. the fact that the resistance uses terrorism makes the actions of the occupier legitimate. Maybe peace would have been achieved earlier had the palestinians not used terror, or maybe not. But mass support of terror makes their side completley unjustified.

No, the "retaliation" would be even harsher if the Palestinians were able to wage effective guerrilla war. And they would be still called 'terrorists'.


Maybe it would be. Same response as above. But they would't be terrorists in fact.

That and the fact that Isreal is backed by the United States. They, meaning Isreal, are the worst "terrorists" of them all. Bulldozing houses, how do you justify that? At least the Palestinians are fighting for the land that was taken from them.


So now bulldozing is equivalent to murder?
By Gothmog
#207439
No, imperialism would be adding Iraq to our empire, if we had one in the first place. Companies will take advantage of any opportunity.


-Modern imperialism don´t need to annex countries. They can´t keep formal independency coupled with a puppet regime. That´s how US imperialism works. That was also how USSR imperialism worked. USSR didn´t annex nations (except those wo were part of Russia before 1917), but kept puppet regimes in East Europe.

Rebuilding Iraq for oil is an opportunity. Even if Bush conspired with oil companies to create this business opportunity in Iraq, which he didn't, that would not make the US an empire. We would actually have to have long-term control over their resources, not just trade with them.


-By occupying a country you ACTUALLY have effective control over those resources, and you can trade with them and still this trade can have imperialist characteristics, if the terms of trade are unilaterally established. England traded with India in the 1800´s....

I see IraqBodyCount.com as the absolute maximum, since the site is run by anti-war liberals and if any higher body count were factual, they would post that.


I see it as the barely minimum, since it seems to be based only in hospital data and on´t count indirect deaths.


ally or a useful weapon? Theres a difference. We were only using him as a weapon against the Iranian fundamentalist threat, not condoning his human rights violations. He would have committed those atrocities with or without our aid for his fight against the Iranians. Had we done nothing, Southern Iraq might have become a pro-Iranian Islamic fundamentalist state, which would have been just as oppressive as Saddam's regime, if not more.


Iran is much less opressive than Iraq, btw, but it seems human rights violations are of minor concern when the violators act according to your interests. That is my definition of hipocrisy

If there were so many deaths, why did Saddam parade dead children around who were not killed by sanctions and claim they were?


For propaganda reasons. When you want to make propaganda, you can use false sources but it don´t imply the facts aren´t happening. In the 1980´s the Ukrainian exiles used photos from the 1922 famine in a documentray about the 1932 famine. This was obviously a fraud but we know the famine happened.

No, it would have worked fine without Saddam manipulating it for his own purposes. It worked fine in non-Saddam controlled nothern Iraq.


To the extent we know the sanctions in North were diferent from the rest of Iraq. It was easier to evade these sanctions and the North received a higher per capita value from the program. Also it is possible that the UN could have placed less bureaucratic controls over civilian imports in non Saddan controlled areas.

It shouldn't have mattered under a properly working oil-for-food program.


It should, because it would aloow rebuilding of civilian infrastructure.

Even more moral equivalence, great. People try so hard to be "fair" to both sides that they miss out on the truth. There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Palestine. Terrorism cannot be equated with reactions against terrorism that cause collateral damage. Ultimately the terrorists are responsible for the palestinians who die as a result of Israeli reactions to terror. They know that their actions will bring retaliation, which will result in palestinian deaths, which will further their anti-Israeli cause. The terrorist propaganda is getting to some of you people. Don't you understand that all the anti-Israeli sentiment around the world is a result of terrorist's cynical use of palestinian lives for propaganda? Any country would have done the same in Isreal's place. They all would have retaliated to terror. They all would have killed civilians by doing so. It all wouldn't have happened had the terrorists not perpetrated it.



Israel occupied foreign territory, imposed an apartheid like regimen, violated massively UN resolutions, settled its population in occupied territory, has been stealing water resources and killed lot of civilians. Israeli crimes are much worse than terrorism, so there is really no moral equivalency between Israel oppression and Palestinian justifiable but misguided attempts to fight their colonizers.
By Gothmog
#207440
More on the effects of sanctions




http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/pages/m ... print.html


Sanctions: Myth & Reality

Originally published in Iraq Under Siege, South End Press, 2002

*Footnotes will be available shortly

Myth 1: The sanctions have produced temporary hardship for the Iraqi people but are an effective, nonviolent method of containing Iraq.

Sanctions target the weakest and most vulnerable members of the Iraqi society–the poor, elderly, newborn, sick, and young. Many equate sanctions with violence. The sanctions, coupled with pain inflicted by US and UK military attacks, have reduced Iraq’s infrastructure to virtual rubble. Water sanitation plants and hospitals remain in dilapidated states. Surveys by the United Nation’s Children’s Fund (Unicef) and the World Health Organization (WHO) note a marked decline in health and nutrition throughout Iraq.

While estimates vary, many independent authorities assert that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children under five have died since 1990, in part as a result of the sanctions and the effects of the Gulf War. An August 1999 Unicef report found that the under-five mortality rate in Iraq has more than doubled since the imposition of sanctions.

In 1999, the United Nations observed:
In addition to the scarcity of resources, malnutrition problems also seem to stem from the massive deterioration in basic infrastructure, in particular in the water-supply and waste disposal systems. The most vulnerable groups have been the hardest hit, especially children under five years of age who are being exposed to unhygienic conditions, particularly in urban centers. The World Food Program estimates that access to potable water is currently 50 percent of the 1990 level in urban areas and only 33 percent in rural areas.

The UN sanctions committee, based in New York, continues to deny Iraq billions of dollars worth of computer equipment, spare parts, medical equipment and medicines, books and periodicals, all necessary elements to sustaining human life and society. Agricultural and environmental studies show great devastation, in many cases indicating long-term and possibly irreversible damage.

Others have argued that, from a North American perspective, sanctions are more economically sustainable than military attacks, since sanctions cost the United States less. In fact, hundreds of millions of US tax dollars are spent each year to sustain economic sanctions. Expenses include monitoring Iraqi import-export practices, patrolling the "no-fly" zones, and maintaining an active military presence in the Gulf region.

Sanctions are an insidious form of warfare, and have claimed hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

Myth 2: Iraq possesses, and seeks to build, weapons of mass destruction. If unchecked, and without economic sanctions, Iraq could, and certainly would, threaten its neighbors.

The final report of the UN Special Commission (Unscom) in 1999 stated that Unscom succeeded to a remarkable degree in finding and destroying Iraq’s chemical and nuclear weapons programs. There are, however, still unanswered questions regarding Iraq’s biological program. What is certain is that no government has produced any hard evidence proving a biological weapons program exists, or if it does, that Saddam Hussein is planning to use biological warfare on his neighbors or the United States.

Hans Blix, head of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification, and Inspection Commission (Unmovic), the new UN weapons inspection agency that has replaced Unscom, has said he "does not accept as fact the US and UK’s repeated assertions that Baghdad has used the time to rebuild its weapons of mass destruction," adding, "It would be inappropriate for me to accept and adopt this position, but it would also be naïve of me to conclude that there may be no veracity–of courseit is possible, I won’t go as far as saying probable."

Scott Ritter, a former chief Unscom weapon’s inspector, has also said that, based on his extensive work in Iraq, he sees no evidence that Iraq currently possesses the capability to produce or deploy chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons.

The United States only became concerned with Iraq’s military potential in 1990, after the invasion of Kuwait. In fact, the United States supplied Iraq with many of its weapons. The United States and Britain were the major suppliers of chemical and biological weapons to Iraq in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq War, in which the United States supported both sides with weapons sales.

Moreover, the United States possesses, and keeps on alert, more nuclear weapons than the rest of the world combined. Many Iraqis feel that it is disingenuous of the United States–sitting atop the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, refusing to comply with international treaties or allow its weapons programs to be inspected by international experts, and being the only nation in the world ever to drop an atomic bomb–to tell Iraq what weapons it can and cannot possess.

Myth 3: Iraq has acted in violation of UN resolutions, while the United States has not.

While the US singles out Iraq for its failure to comply with UN resolutions and human rights standards, Washington maintains profitable relationships with almost all of Iraq’s neighbors. In recent years, the United States supplied Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Israel with billions of dollars in weapons . The United Nations, Amnesty International, and even the State Department have condemned all of those countries serious violations of human rights and UN resolutions.

UN Resolution 687, paragraph 14, calls for regional disarmament as the basis for reducing Iraq’s arsenal. By arming Iraq’s neighbors in the Middle East, the US government is contravening the same UN resolution that it cites to justify continuing the sanctions.

Israel maintained a position of "nuclear ambiguity" until 1986, when a then-technician Mordechai Vanunu exposed photographs and details about Israel’s nuclear weapon’s program. Vanunu was sentenced to 18 years in high-security prison for treason. The extent of Israel’s nuclear capability is still uncertain, but the country is believed to have more than 200 nuclear warheads and has violated scores of UN Mandates, yet the US remains silent with regard to this violation of international law.

Myth 4: The Iraqi government has weakened and undermined the UN weapons inspection program, in part by kicking out inspectors in December 1998, thus forcing the United States and United Kingdom to undertake "Operation Desert Fox."

The Iraqi government, knowing that the United States favors Saddam Hussein’s ouster and will impose sanctions until a "regime change" occurs, has no incentive to cooperate with the United States or intrusive weapon’s inspections. Top US administration officials have said publicly for more than a decade that sanctions will remain intact until Saddam Hussein is out of office, even though this is not stipulated under the UN resolutions enforcing the sanctions.

Unscom director Richard Butler removed inspectors from Iraq prior to the December 1998 bombardment of the country, contrary to what is still commonly–and mistakenly–reported. The US government claims Iraq "threw out" inspectors. In fact, the opposite occurred. According to Butler’s own records, his team of weapons inspectors made numerous unimpeded visits the week before the December bombing. On only a few intentionally provocative visits were inspectors prevented from inspecting a site.

Butler himself confirmed that he was in constant communication with the US military the week before the bombing. He often took his cues from Washington. Furthermore, the US government admitted (after an embarrassing Washington Post story) that it had been using Unscom to spy on Iraq. Iraq had previously charged Unscom with spying–a claim that had been vehemently denied by the US government. The irony is that Iraq pays for the entire UN operation in Iraq through oil revenues, thus financing UN workers to spy under United States cover.

In the past, efforts at negotiation with Iraq have produced cooperation and an opening for dialogue. Establishment of a clear timetable for ending inspections and recognizing progress made by the Iraqi government would provide clear incentives for future dialogue and compliance.

Myth 5: The Iraqi government is deliberately withholding and stockpiling food and medicine to exacerbate the human suffering for political sympathy and to draw attention to the need to lift sanctions.

The US State Department frequently alleges that Iraq appears to be warehousing and stockpiling medicines, with malicious intent. Yet United Nations which heavily monitors the warehousing of medicines contradicts this view. Tun Myat, the humanitarian coordinator and head of the UN’s "oil-for-food" program in Baghdad from 2000—2002, praised Iraqi distribution of essential goods. He told the New York Times, "I think the Iraqi food-distribution system is probably second to none that you’ll find anywhere in the world. It gets to everybody whom it’s supposed to get to in the country."

According to local UN administration and staff, the gaps in delivery that do exist are caused by logistical problems stemming from twelve years of sanctions and lingering Gulf War damage. Periodic UN reports on the humanitarian programs in Iraq list many technical issues that complicate providing medicine and other vital resources to a country of 22 million people. Obstacles to efficient distribution include the low wages of Iraqi warehouses workers, insufficient transport, and the poor condition of Iraqi warehouses in the provinces.

The United Nations conducts frequent inventories of the food and medicine stored in Iraq. Former humanitarian coordinator Hans von Sponeck (who resigned from the post in 2000 in protest against the sanctions) and his deputy, Farid Zarif, have repeatedly called for the "depoliticization" of distribution, arguing that stockpiling is the result of Iraq’s damaged infrastructure, rather than malice on the part of the Iraqi government.

In many cases, Iraq must purchase goods from foreign suppliers. Items come in pieces; for example, dental chairs arrive but compressors must be ordered from another company, or syringes arrive but needles take longer to be processed. Moreover, the UN sanctions committee takes longer to approve some orders than others, thus forcing Iraq to keep medicine in storage until the complements are approved.

Temperatures in Iraq during summer often reach 130 degrees Fahrenheit. Air-conditioned trucks are therefore essential for shipping perishable goods, including cancer medication, surgical gloves, and foodstuffs. Yet air-conditioned trucks are practically nonexistent in Iraq, since the sanctions committee has barred them under "dual use" considerations. While it is certainly true that air-conditioned trucks could be used for military purposes, they are also necessary to ship medication.

The infrastructure is so degraded throughout Iraq that medicine and even spare parts are "Band-Aids to a huge problem," according to von Sponeck. "You can give all the food and medicine you want," Says Tun Myat, "but living standards would not improve unless housing, electricity, clean water and sanitation, and other essential services were restored." Reconstructing Iraq’s essential infrastructure could cost as much as an estimated $50 to $100 billion.

After allocations are taken out of Iraq’s oil revenues to finance Gulf War reparations, UN administrative costs, and other mandated expenses, the amount of money from the oil-for-food program that trickles down to the average person in Iraq is completely insufficient. Prior to May 2002, "[T]he total value of all food, medicines, education, sanitation, agricultural and infrastructure supplies that have arrived in Iraq has amounted to $175 per person a year, or less than 49 cents a day," according to von Sponeck.

Iraq cannot afford to rebuild its infrastructure under the oil-for-food program or under the new provisions of so-called smart sanctions. Water sanitation facilities, electrical grids, communication lines, and educational resources will remain permanently degraded until the sanctions are lifted.

Myth 6: The Iraqi leadership uses money intended for humanitarian purposes to build palaces and enrich itself.

In the years before the oil-for-food program began, it is important to recall that the Iraqi government was distributing food to its civilian population. The UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said in 1995 of the Iraqi rationing system that began in September 1990: "The food basket supplied through the rationing system is a life-saving nutritional benefit which also represents a very substantial income subsidy to Iraqi households."

Iraq is pumping almost as much oil today as it did before the Gulf War, but is making less money because of the change in oil prices and the dramatic rise of inflation since 1990. When one considers that three Iraqi dinars could buy $1 in 1990, and today it takes more than 2,000 dinars, the difference in purchasing power between 1990 and today is significant. While Iraq is permitted to sell as much oil as it can pump, these funds are not at the discretion of Saddam Hussein, but are kept in a UN escrow account with the Bank of Paris in New York City.

The sanctions, though intended to weaken Iraq’s elite ruling class, only strengthen its political hegemony. With Iraq’s population decimated by hunger, disease, and fear of US and UK bombs, the development of civil society is hampered, as are hopes for pluralism. Iraq’s elite is empowered by a lucrative black market. With the continued devastation caused by sanctions, the Iraqi government can better rally popular support and bitterness against the US government.

Myth 7: The distribution in northern Iraq–where the United Nations is most heavily involved–is better than in the south, proving that the Iraqi government is failing to adequately distribute food and medicine to its people.

Sanctions are simply not the same in the north and south of Iraq. Differences in Iraqi mortality rates result from several factors: the Kurdish north has been receiving humanitarian assistance longer than other regions of Iraq; agriculture in the north is better; evading sanctions is easier in the north because its borders are far more porous; the north receives 22 percent more per capita from the oil-for-food program than the south-central region; and the north receives UN-controlled assistance in currency, while the rest of the country receives only commodities. The south also suffered much more direct bombing, including attacks using depleted-uranium tipped bullets, during the Gulf War.

Myth 8: In May 2002, the UN Security Council voted unanimously to adopt "smart sanctions" on Iraq, demonstrating a determination to meet the needs of the Iraqi people.

Resolution 1409 (the "smart sanctions" resolution) is a hollow solution to an urgent humanitarian crisis. US and UK proponents of the resolution claim that by lifting restrictions on Iraq’s ability to import civilian goods and focusing narrowly on preventing Iraq from importing or building weapons of mass destruction, the suffering in Iraq will be diminished.

But the change was mostly aimed at winning a public relations battle, not relieving ordinary Iraqis’ suffering. "The resolution was intended to blunt any drive to end the sanctions altogether and to deflate criticism that the measures are hurting ordinary Iraqis more than their leader," Somini Sengupta reported in the New York Times. "It also seemed part of the diplomatic groundwork the Bush administration is seeking to lay as it presses its case that Mr. Hussein should be removed from power, perhaps by force."

In the word of the New York Times Magazine, the UN sanctions were "creating a P.R. nightmare of hungry children," particularly for the US government, "but smart sanctions created the impression of doing something."

Under the proposed smart sanctions, the United States will still be able to use its power in the UN to block essential goods by citing "dual use" concerns, blocking access to items that are badly needed in Iraq but which any modern society could also use in a chemical or biological weapons program.

At the time Resolution 1409 was adopted, $5 billion in contracts were "on hold," largely because of holds placed by the United States in the UN sanctions committee. Still, US and British officials place all of the blame on the Iraqi government, "Under the Oil for Food Program it has always been possible to get humanitarian and civilian goods into Iraq, and I think the principal obstacle has been the refusal of the Iraqi regime to spend its own resources for the importation of those items," claims John D. Negroponte, the US permanent representative to the United Nations.

UN workers on the ground on Iraq have a very different perspective, "The [oil-for-food] distribution network is second to none," Adnan Jarra, a UN spokesperson in Iraq, recently told the Wall Street Journal. "They [the Iraqis] are very efficient. We have not found anything that went anywhere it was not supposed to."

The Security Council’s own humanitarian panel reported in March 1999 that for Iraq to recover, "the oil for food system alone would not suffice and massive investment would be required in a number of key sectors, including oil, energy, agriculture and sanitation."

This will be impossible under "smart sanctions," which prohibit foreign investment into Iraq’s war-damaged infrastructure, guaranteeing the prolonged collapse of the Iraqi economy.

As Hans von Sponeck notes, "Without massive investment to rebuild the war- and embargo-shattered infrastructure, most Iraqi families cannot earn income to purchase the civilian goods promised. Like all previous revisions, ‘smart sanctions’ leave the root cause of their troubles–strangulation of the civilian economy–unaddressed."

Myth 9: The US and UK fighter planes patrolling the "no-fly" zones are protecting Iraqi minority groups. Since the end of the December 1998 bombing campaign, there has been no "collateral damage" in these regions.

Since the December 1998 bombing campaign against Iraq, US and UK fighter planes have flown thousands of sorties over the northern and southern "no-fly" zones, allegedly to protect northern Kurds and southern Shiites. They patrol the Iraqi airspace, they say, so that Iraq cannot attack its own people, as it did during the 1980s. While UN resolutions do call for the protection of Iraqi minorities, there is no stipulation for military enforcement of the zones.

According to the UN Office of the Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq, US and UK planes have killed hundreds of innocent civilians, and injured many more. For example, on January 25, 1999, a guided missile killed more than ten people in Basra when it struck a civilian neighborhood. While the Pentagon denies any civilian casualties, eye-witness accounts describe encounters with scores of children and families wounded and killed when bombs missed their targets.

While the US claims to be protecting northern Kurds from the Iraqi government, the US is silent when Turkey flies into Iraq, over the "no-fly" zone, to bomb Kurdish communities, because Turkey is a US ally.

The bombing also complicates the humanitarian efforts of the United Nations. Aid workers have been forced to cancel trips into Kurdish and Shiite regions, and many civilians have been accidentally wounded, further burdening hospitals that are struggling to cope with daunting incidences of illness and preventable diseases.

Myth 10: There is no realistic alternative to the current policy.

The alternative to economic sanctions is termination. Termination combined with capital investment to enable the Iraqi government to rebuild the country’s capacity for electric power that is essential for the potable water, sanitation, and health care–all of which are required (as in any modern urbanized country) to keep children and adults alive and well. Likewise capital is needed for all the other sectors of the economy from transportation through agriculture, industry through education and technology.

Any alternative policy would have to take into account the welfare of ordinary Iraqi people, who have suffered dramatically under a failed policy of depravation and violence, not simply the political interests of the United States and its allies.

The US, UK, and UN must offer incentives for Iraq to cooperate with its neighbors. A first step towards such a policy would be the beginning of a "confidence-building process, initially at a low level and behind closed doors, with all protagonists at the table."

The isolation of Iraq, its people, and its economy must be ended to restore this international partner, sadly once so cozy to the United States and other countries when they applauded and actively supported its bloody and tragic war against Iran.

Domestically, Iraq must improve its human rights record dramatically, and institute arrangements for the Kurds to be an integrated and prosperous part of the country’s economy. The government must allow the people of Iraq to make their own choices and in due course–and with restoration of Iraqi’s standard of living, as well as the elimination of the external focus for Iraqi’s anger–opportunities for political change would increase.

The United States and other members of the Security Council must also take partial responsibility for the arming of Iraq in the decades leading up to the Gulf War, as well as the enormous suffering of the Iraqi people since the Gulf War in the name of Iraq’s disarmament.

An alternative policy should also be concerned not only that Iraq’s acquiring weapons of mass destruction, but with those countries and corporations who seek to arm Iraq–and its many neighbors in the region–for profit. Change in Iraq, to be effective, will need to be linked to broader regional changes.

Myth 11: US and UK plans to attack Iraq have nothing to do with oil interests.

Iraq possesses the world’s second largest proven oil reserves, currently estimated at 112.5 billion barrels, about 11 percent of the world total, and its gas fields are immense, as well. Many experts believe that Iraq has additional undiscovered oil reserves, which might double the total when serious prospecting resumes, putting Iraq nearly on a par with Saudi Arabia. Iraq’s oil is of high quality and it is very inexpensive to produce, making it one of the world’s most profitable oil sources. Oil companies hope to gain production rights over these rich fields of Iraqi oil, worth hundreds of billions of dollars. In the view of an industry source it is "a boom waiting to happen."

As rising world demand depletes reserves in most world regions over the next 10 to 15 years, Iraq’s oil will gain increasing importance in global energy supplies. According to one industry expert: "There is not an oil company in the world that doesn’t have its eye on Iraq."

Geopolitical rivalry among major nations throughout the past century has often turned on control of such key oil resources. Five companies dominate the world oil industry, two US-based, two primarily UK-based, and one primarily based in France. US-based Exxon Mobil looms largest among the world’s oil companies and by some yardsticks measures as the world’s biggest company. The United States consequently ranks first in the corporate oil sector, with the UK second and France trailing as a distant third.

Considering that the US and the UK act almost alone as sanctions advocates and enforcers, and that they are the headquarters of the world’s four largest oil companies, we cannot ignore the possible relationship of sanctions policy with this powerful corporate interest.

US and UK companies long held a three-quarter share in Iraq’s oil production, but they lost their position with the 1972 nationalization of the Iraq Petroleum Company. The nationalization, following ten years of increasingly rancorous relations between the companies and the government, rocked the international oil industry, as Iraq sought to gain greater control of its oil resources. After the nationalization, Iraq turned to French companies and the Russian (Soviet) government for funds and partnerships.

Today, the US and UK companies are very keen to regain their former position, which they see as critical to their future leading role in the world oil industry. The US and the UK governments also see control over Iraqi and Gulf oil as essential to their broader military, geostrategic, and economic interests. At the same time, though, other states and oil companies hope to gain a large or even dominant position in Iraq. As de-nationalization sweeps through the oil sector, international companies see Iraq as an extremely attractive potential field of expansion. France and Russia, the longstanding insiders, pose the biggest challenge to future Anglo-American domination, but serious competitors from China, Germany and Japan also play in the Iraq sweepstakes.

During the 1990s, Russia’s Lukoil, China National Petroleum Corporation and France’s TotalFinaElf held contract talks with the government of Iraq over plans to develop Iraqi fields as soon as sanctions are lifted. Lukoil reached an agreement in 1997 to develop Iraq’s West Qurna field, while China National signed an agreement for the North Rumailah field in the same year. France’s Total at the same time held talks for future development of the fabulous Majnun field.

US and UK companies have been very concerned that their rivals might gain a major long-term advantage in the global oil business. "Iraq possesses huge reserves of oil and gas – reserves I’d love Chevron to have access to," enthused Chevron CEO Kenneth T. Derr in a 1998 speech at the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco, in which he pronounced his strong support

for sanctions. Sanctions have kept the rivals at bay, a clear advantage. US-UK companies hope that the regime will eventually collapse, giving them a strong edge over their competitors with a post-Saddam government. As the embargo weakens and Saddam holds on to power, however, stakes in the rivalry rise, since US-UK companies might eventually be shouldered aside. Direct military intervention by the US-UK offers a tempting but dangerous gamble that might put Exxon, Shell, BP, and Chevron in immediate control of the Iraqi oil

boom, but at the risk of backlash from a regional political explosion.

In testimony to Congress in 1999, General Anthony C. Zinni, commander in chief of the US Central Command, testified that the Gulf region, with its huge oil reserves, is a "vital interest" of "long standing" for the United States and that the US "must have free access to the region’s resources." "Free access," it

seems, means both military and economic control of these resources. This has been a major goal of US strategic doctrine ever since the end of World War II. Prior to 1971, Britain (the former colonial power) policed the region and its oil riches. Since then, the United States has deployed ever-larger military forces to assure "free access" through overwhelming armed might.

A looming US war against Iraq is only comprehensible in this light. For all the talk about terrorism, weapons of mass destruction and human rights violations by Saddam Hussein, these are not the core issues driving US policy. Rather, it is "free access" to Iraqi oil and the ultimate control over that oil by US and UK companies that raises the stakes high enough to set US forces on the move and risk the stakes of global empire. As Investor’s Business Daily notes, if the US were to occupy Iraq, it would not only "gain a central staging base for future [military] operations," but "It would take control of 11 percent of the world's oil reserves, too. That 11 percent would help pay for the occupation" and "could also be leverage against oil-dependent Arab nations -- just as the U.S. used cheap oil in the 1980s to bankrupt the USSR."
User avatar
By DTguitarist99
#207456
Modern imperialism don´t need to annex countries. They can´t keep formal independency coupled with a puppet regime. That´s how US imperialism works. That was also how USSR imperialism worked. USSR didn´t annex nations (except those wo were part of Russia before 1917), but kept puppet regimes in East Europe.


The US is not an empire in the historic sense of the word. Of course if you can always broaden the definition of any word and call it "modern" whatever. The only reason to do this in the case of "empire" is America-bashing. The left was first convinced that America is an evil empire, but then realizing that America was not an empire at all they broadened the definition to include America. Now they can call America a modern empire as much as they want.

As far as I'm concerned, trading with an occupied country is not equivalent to an empire, but it may be a "modern empire" or whatever. Empires intended to pump the resources of their colonies until they were dry. The US does not intend to occupy Iraq until their last drop of oil is dredged up. This shows that the occupation and oil trading are not connected. The occupation will end when Iraq is ready to self-govern, and it is not connected to oil. The US will also not set up a puppet regime after the occupation. When have we ever done that before? We do not dominate Japan through a puppet regime, since we gave them control after they were ready for self-government. We do not dominate Germany, South Korea, or Afghanistan.

By occupying a country you ACTUALLY have effective control over those resources, and you can trade with them and still this trade can have imperialist characteristics, if the terms of trade are unilaterally established. England traded with India in the 1800´s....


I said long-term control, not short term. Of course in the short-term we will have control over the oil through occupation. But we would not unfairly benefit ourselves and cheat the Iraqis, because we would be preparing for their self-government, and we would need good relations with that country afterwards in order to keep trading with them.

I see it as the barely minimum, since it seems to be based only in hospital data and on´t count indirect deaths.


I believe indirect deaths will not be a major factor, as soon as the infrastructure gets back in place.

Iran is much less opressive than Iraq, btw, but it seems human rights violations are of minor concern when the violators act according to your interests. That is my definition of hipocrisy


The Baathist ideaology was not a spreading threat, while the Iranian fundamentalist theocracy was something that we did not wish to see infect the entire Middle East.

For propaganda reasons. When you want to make propaganda, you can use false sources but it don´t imply the facts aren´t happening. In the 1980´s the Ukrainian exiles used photos from the 1922 famine in a documentray about the 1932 famine. This was obviously a fraud but we know the famine happened.


And they probably used the 1922 pictures because they lacked cameras. If the report of 500,000 children dying from sanctions and many more adults dying was true, Saddam would have no shortage of people really killed by sanctions to parade. It probably killed thousands though.

To the extent we know the sanctions in North were diferent from the rest of Iraq. It was easier to evade these sanctions and the North received a higher per capita value from the program. Also it is possible that the UN could have placed less bureaucratic controls over civilian imports in non Saddan controlled areas.


These may have been small factors, but the fact that Saddam was not manipulating oil-for-food for propaganda is a HUGE factor. Both regions experienced bad effects from the sanctions according to UNICEF, until oil-for-food was introduced and the north dramatically improved, while the south did not.

srael occupied foreign territory, imposed an apartheid like regimen, violated massively UN resolutions, settled its population in occupied territory, has been stealing water resources and killed lot of civilians. Israeli crimes are much worse than terrorism, so there is really no moral equivalency between Israel oppression and Palestinian justifiable but misguided attempts to fight their colonizers.


Israel was granted its territory by the UN, it did not invade and occupy it. It is not apartheid, because Arab-Israelis are fairly represented in their government, and have full rights. They have a protected right to protest, which they have excercized on occasion, but overall they haven't been discontent enough to organize many protests. Israel has not oppressed anyone. They took the West Bank and Gaza strip in a defensive war, and were ready soon after to negotiate it back to the Arab states, and they refused. Then the terrorism started, and Israel didn't not want to give the Palestinians a state without them getting rid of the terrorists. That is not oppression, its common sense.

So now murder isn't evil, but only "misguided." Imagine yourself as an Israeli, and hardly anyone you know hasn't had a friend or relative killed or injured by a suicide bombing. Would you then think the terrorists are simply "misguided"? What if the US were to send out assassins to your country and randomly kill dozens of your people every month. Would we simply be "misguided"? No political cause justifies murder. Lets say the environmentalists, whose cause is just even if many of their facts are wrong, started terrorizing everyone with suicide bombings. Would they be misguided or evil?

Myth 11: US and UK plans to attack Iraq have nothing to do with oil interests.


The real myth is that Bush conspired with oil companies to attack Iraq. There is no evidence for this, only theory.

So far, no one has successfully answered the question, why didn't we take over Iraq's oilfields in 1991 if all we wanted was oil?

We also only get 25% of our oil from the Middle East. Its important to us, but not vital.
User avatar
By Free the Six Counties!
#207458
Terrorism as most think of it usually is a result of an underdog group fighting against a far superior force in the only way they can hope to make a difference. Since the U.S. spy satellites, advanced main battle tanks, and laser-guided munitions dropped from planes that no one can touch have made it impossible for any nation, let alone a poor 3rd world one, to face the USA (and Israel) in a conventional war, people are fighting back the only way they are capable of - terrorism.

Coincidently, I believe it to be much more cowardly to bomb an army into oblivion from a completely safe position than to voluntarily give your life for a cause -i.e. suicide bombing... (this should not be construed as support of suicide bombing, but I think it is unfair to call these men cowards, as many do.)
User avatar
By DTguitarist99
#207460
Terrorism as most think of it usually is a result of an underdog group fighting against a far superior force in the only way they can hope to make a difference. Since the U.S. spy satellites, advanced main battle tanks, and laser-guided munitions dropped from planes that no one can touch have made it impossible for any nation, let alone a poor 3rd world one, to face the USA (and Israel) in a conventional war, people are fighting back the only way they are capable of - terrorism.


Terrorism does not win wars. Guerilla tactics do. When fighting a major superpower, its been proven that a properly executed guerilla war is effective. terrorism is not the only option left to poor countries, they can still use guerilla warfare. For example, why don't they direct the suicide bombers towards legitimate targets instead of women and children? That would be guerilla warfare, not terrorism, as most people agree that terrorism is the targeting of civilians while guerilla is the targeting of military through unconventional means.

Coincidently, I believe it to be much more cowardly to bomb an army into oblivion from a completely safe position than to voluntarily give your life for a cause -i.e. suicide bombing... (this should not be construed as support of suicide bombing, but I think it is unfair to call these men cowards, as many do.)


I agree, but all evil people don't have to be cowards. Terrorists are both fearless and evil.
User avatar
By DayTripper
#207461
Lt. Spoonman wrote:hey, IRA- your boys sold out! I have no respect for those pussies!!! Go suck some british dick - Tony Blair is GOD - SPOONMAN OUT



Who do you have respect for. Certainly not oppresive imperialistic governments who have for centuries destroyed and ruined the lives of many innocent working class civilians. If this is who you respect, then may god have mercy on your soul.
User avatar
By Free the Six Counties!
#207465
[quote="IsildurXI"]
Terrorism does not win wars. Guerilla tactics do. When fighting a major superpower, its been proven that a properly executed guerilla war is effective. terrorism is not the only option left to poor countries, they can still use guerilla warfare. For example, why don't they direct the suicide bombers towards legitimate targets instead of women and children? That would be guerilla warfare, not terrorism, as most people agree that terrorism is the targeting of civilians while guerilla is the targeting of military through unconventional means.
quote]

often the targets are "legitimate" military targets - the wave of suicide attacks against the US in Iraq have all been directed at soldiers. when civilian targets are chosen, it is often just because they are considered "soft" - they are not the prefered target.

Its also easy for people around the globe to get caught up in the "Faceless Evil" idea : the people that terrorists kill, to them, are not people, just americans or israelis or british or whatever. this is a close-to-home problem also; in any high school in the USA the general feeling is "kill all the a-rabs cause they are all terrorist bastards!" these types of generalizations are dangerous to all involved.
User avatar
By DTguitarist99
#207469
often the targets are "legitimate" military targets - the wave of suicide attacks against the US in Iraq have all been directed at soldiers. when civilian targets are chosen, it is often just because they are considered "soft" - they are not the prefered target.


It should not be just "often," it should be exclusively attacks against legitimate targets. Who cares if the civilians are not the terrorist's "preferred target"? If a murderer is planning to kill a certain person and kills someone else instead, who is not preferred target, he is still a murderer. Terrorists specifically plan to kill civilians. They may engage in guerilla warfare, but if they kill civilians purposefully they are terrorists.

Heres some stats you may find useful:

http://www.ict.org.il/arab_isr/frame.htm

Notice how few women noncombatants the Israelis kill. This shows that not many of the deaths are a result of collateral damage from Israeli anti-terrorist campaigns, which would be indiscriminate in gender. Most likely those male noncombatants were mixed in with palestinian combatants and were throwing stones. They were probably killed in the crossfire between Palestinian combatants and Israelis.

ts also easy for people around the globe to get caught up in the "Faceless Evil" idea : the people that terrorists kill, to them, are not people, just americans or israelis or british or whatever. this is a close-to-home problem also; in any high school in the USA the general feeling is "kill all the a-rabs cause they are all terrorist bastards!" these types of generalizations are dangerous to all involved.


Where did you go to high school? The mood of my high school was pretty much the opposite after 9/11. I have never encountered anyone who said something like that seriously, maybe because there are a lot of Arab-Americans where I live and the people aren't rednecks. I think Americans distinguish between terrorists and the general Arab population, and they are especially more favorable to the Americanized Arab-Americans.
User avatar
By jaakko
#207518
IRA-MOOSE wrote:
Lt. Spoonman wrote:hey, IRA- your boys sold out! I have no respect for those pussies!!! Go suck some british dick - Tony Blair is GOD - SPOONMAN OUT


Who do you have respect for. Certainly not oppresive imperialistic governments who have for centuries destroyed and ruined the lives of many innocent working class civilians. If this is who you respect, then may god have mercy on your soul.


Spoonman is not in a position to judge. 'Respect' is not in his dictionary. He should stick to what he does best; smoking pot.
By John Doe
#207527
Of course if you can always broaden the definition of any word and call it "modern" whatever.


Heh, hang around here and you'll see the Finnish guy spending a whole lot of time refining and redefining words. And he probably wonders what Orwell was satarizing with his New Speak Dictionary bit.
Last edited by John Doe on 05 Jun 2003 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
By John Doe
#207529
In the twenties a French aviator by the name of Dahout came up with the theory of using aviation to terror bomb civilian targets during wars. The thought was that the civilians would lose there will to fight from the bombing. During WWII all sides embraced that theory and experimented with it mightly. High explosives, incendiaries and ultimately nuclear weapons levelled city after city. However, it didn't break the will of the civilians as anticipated -- rather it made them more determined and angry.

That is why modern successful forces like the US, unlike the Russians with their ham-handed tactics in Grozny, concentrate so heavily on precision bombing today.

Terrorism is Dohaut's terror bombing in another dimension. I doubt it will work in the long run. In fact, I think it is beginning to lose steam already.
#207541
That is why modern successful forces like the US, unlike the Russians with their ham-handed tactics in Grozny, concentrate so heavily on precision bombing today.


Really, a better place to look for the efficiency of the Soviet Army is Georgia, pre-Chechnya. They move at lightning speed, and they were able to take villages, towns, and other things, within hours - and all at night! All these ridiculous stories about the "once mighty" Russian Army fighting with sticks instead of guns - almost a throwback to the old Rasputin-era, and the armed forces there having to feed their regiments on dog food(!) are just that... ridiculous.
By Gothmog
#207560
The US is not an empire in the historic sense of the word. Of course if you can always broaden the definition of any word and call it "modern" whatever. The only reason to do this in the case of "empire" is America-bashing. The left was first convinced that America is an evil empire, but then realizing that America was not an empire at all they broadened the definition to include America. Now they can call America a modern empire as much as they want.


The left wing notion of imperialism was developed in early 1900´s by Rosa Luxembourg and Lenin, before the rising of USA as a superpower. It has nothing to do with anitamericanism.



I said long-term control, not short term. Of course in the short-term we will have control over the oil through occupation. But we would not unfairly benefit ourselves and cheat the Iraqis, because we would be preparing for their self-government, and we would need good relations with that country afterwards in order to keep trading with them.


Self government...in a country with a puppet regime and permanent US bases?


I believe indirect deaths will not be a major factor, as soon as the infrastructure gets back in place.


Indirect deaths probably are much higher for now, and the infrastructure is being repaired very slowly.


And they probably used the 1922 pictures because they lacked cameras. If the report of 500,000 children dying from sanctions and many more adults dying was true, Saddam would have no shortage of people really killed by sanctions to parade. It probably killed thousands though.


It´s impossible to identify who is dead due to sanctions and who is not. Because the effects of sanctions is a increase in overall mortality, but those causes of death (disease, malnutrition, and so on) are mixed up with baseline causes of deaths. The effect of sanctions is quantitative, not qualitative. When, for instance, shortages of drugs decreases cure rates for chilhood ALL (Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia) from 65% to 25% (see topic on medical literature) it is impossible to see who are the aditional 40% who died as a consequence of sanctions. So this very information of children been paraded is probably biased.

These may have been small factors, but the fact that Saddam was not manipulating oil-for-food for propaganda is a HUGE factor. Both regions experienced bad effects from the sanctions according to UNICEF, until oil-for-food was introduced and the north dramatically improved, while the south did not.


The described reasons seems not to be so small. Addditional cash from UN an a higher per capita income from oil for food, coupled with better agriculture and less damage to infrastructure may have did a HUGE diference

Israel was granted its territory by the UN, it did not invade and occupy it.


-Please, show me the UN resolution that gave Israel Gaza strip and West Bank. I´m curious....


It is not apartheid, because Arab-Israelis are fairly represented in their government, and have full rights.


-Palestinians in occupied territory have no citizenship rights, so it is apartheide. And Arab Israelis are second class citizens, since they have restrictions on property rights (of land) an Israel don´t have a Civil code that allows inter religion marriage, just like South Africa forbade inter racial marriage.

They have a protected right to protest, which they have excercized on occasion, but overall they haven't been discontent enough to organize many protests. Israel has not oppressed anyone.


-The last time they staged large proptests, the Israeli army killed 14 of them. This happened in late 2000 (start of second Intifada)


They took the West Bank and Gaza strip in a defensive war, and were ready soon after to negotiate it back to the Arab states, and they refused. Then the terrorism started, and Israel didn't not want to give the Palestinians a state without them getting rid of the terrorists. That is not oppression, its common sense.


You seem to live in a fantasy world. Those two territories were not taken in a defensive war, since Israel attacked first. Israel didn´t offer the territories took in 1967 (except Sinai), and has settled fanatical right wing in the occupied territories (which is forbidden by Geneva Convention). On terrorism, it is largely the result of occupation. No occupation, no terrorism.

So now murder isn't evil, but only "misguided." Imagine yourself as an Israeli, and hardly anyone you know hasn't had a friend or relative killed or injured by a suicide bombing. Would you then think the terrorists are simply "misguided"? What if the US were to send out assassins to your country and randomly kill dozens of your people every month. Would we simply be "misguided"? No political cause justifies murder. Lets say the environmentalists, whose cause is just even if many of their facts are wrong, started terrorizing everyone with suicide bombings. Would they be misguided or evil?


Imagine yourself living in a place where a foreign occupation power demolishes your house, confiscates your land and restricts your movement freedom to such an extent that a travel of a few miles can take hours. This government is settling his citizens in you territory and they enjoy swimming pools in their houses, while you face water shortage.
You have no citizenship rights, so it is a effective dictatorship. This government has a law that allows torture and so on. The Palestinians have the full rights of fighting back. However, from my point they should concentrate their attacks on settlers and in the occupation army. Maybe if they had better heavy equipment they could have done so.....

The real myth is that Bush conspired with oil companies to attack Iraq. There is no evidence for this, only theory.
So far, no one has successfully answered the question, why didn't we take over Iraq's oilfields in 1991 if all we wanted was oil?


I don´t think it was all about oil, and no serious marxist think so. It´s all about a project of world scale hegemony. This project included establishing puppet governments in strategic areas, to keep oil proces relatively low and to secure access to oil. It also about currency. Iraq sttarted to make external trade in Euros. If this example is followed by other countries, it will be a huge headache to USA, since the country has a huge current account defict, which is only tolerable because it is in US currency. If the dollar loses its position as dominating strong currency in the world, the results would be disastrous.

We also only get 25% of our oil from the Middle East. Its important to us, but not vital.


25% of oil is equal to 50% of oil imports. This is a vital amount.
User avatar
By DTguitarist99
#207576
The left wing notion of imperialism was developed in early 1900´s by Rosa Luxembourg and Lenin, before the rising of USA as a superpower. It has nothing to do with anitamericanism.


Ok, but America still doesn't fit the traditional definition of empire, and that is the only definition I use.

Self government...in a country with a puppet regime and permanent US bases?


Like I said before, when have we ever tried to gain permanent control of a country through a puppet regime? Our military bases can always be rejected by the country they are in.

Indirect deaths probably are much higher for now, and the infrastructure is being repaired very slowly.


We'll have to wait for some research to be done on excatly how high that will be.

It´s impossible to identify who is dead due to sanctions and who is not. Because the effects of sanctions is a increase in overall mortality, but those causes of death (disease, malnutrition, and so on) are mixed up with baseline causes of deaths. The effect of sanctions is quantitative, not qualitative. When, for instance, shortages of drugs decreases cure rates for chilhood ALL (Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia) from 65% to 25% (see topic on medical literature) it is impossible to see who are the aditional 40% who died as a consequence of sanctions. So this very information of children been paraded is probably biased.


You would probably considered this biased, but I really doubt they are making this story up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... wirq25.xml

"But The Telegraph can reveal that it was all a cynical charade. Iraqi doctors say they were told to collect dead babies who had died prematurely or from natural causes and to store them in cardboard boxes in refrigerated morgues for up to four weeks - until they had sufficient corpses for a parade."

Please, show me the UN resolution that gave Israel Gaza strip and West Bank. I´m curious....


I was talking about the land originally given to Israel, which it has a right to have since it was granted by the UN.

since they have restrictions on property rights (of land)


This is a myth. 92% of the land in Israel is owned by the government officially, and it is only available for lease. No, arabs cannot buy that land. But neither can Jews.

an Israel don´t have a Civil code that allows inter religion marriage


That doesn't quite equal apartheid...

The last time they staged large proptests, the Israeli army killed 14 of them. This happened in late 2000 (start of second Intifada)


There was some violence in that protest, and people got killed. The Arab-Israelis would have conducted major proetsts before if they felt they were discrininated against.

You seem to live in a fantasy world. Those two territories were not taken in a defensive war, since Israel attacked first. Israel didn´t offer the territories took in 1967 (except Sinai), and has settled fanatical right wing in the occupied territories (which is forbidden by Geneva Convention). On terrorism, it is largely the result of occupation. No occupation, no terrorism.


International law includes preemptive attacks on an imminent threat as defensive war. Just look deeper into the histroy of the war, you'll see that it was the Arab states who were the agressors. They massed their troops up along Israel's borders and were preparing for attacking when Israel launched its preemptive attack.

Imagine yourself living in a place where a foreign occupation power demolishes your house, confiscates your land and restricts your movement freedom to such an extent that a travel of a few miles can take hours. This government is settling his citizens in you territory and they enjoy swimming pools in their houses, while you face water shortage.
You have no citizenship rights, so it is a effective dictatorship. This government has a law that allows torture and so on. The Palestinians have the full rights of fighting back. However, from my point they should concentrate their attacks on settlers and in the occupation army. Maybe if they had better heavy equipment they could have done so.....


Hundreds of millions of people live in such conditions, yet they don't become terrorists. They don't need heavy equipment to conduct guerilla warfare instead of terrorism.
User avatar
By LordofTheNipplerings
#207612
The US fits the category of Empire ever since its very founding. The Dutch, Swedes, and other European powers had occupied and settled along North America acquiring the land from the indigenous populations. The British through force then acquired such colonies from the Dutch. As the Colonies gained their independence from the British Empire they inherited the land that had exchanged hands so many times throughout colonial history.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~ ... laware.htm


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hill ... indian.htm

However that doesn’t explain how a nation that initially consisted of thirteen states could have expanded into a nation that now consists of fifty. The colonists had long wanted to expand beyond its settlements but British policy prohibited it. The British feared that colonial expansion would cause retaliation against the empire by indigenous populations, thus resulting in the need of more funds to protect the empire from such conflicts. After all, the British Empire had already fought a costly war against the French and the Indians that incidentally protected the colonists during the Seven Years war, which resulted in a demand of more tax revenue from the colonists. As Thomas Jefferson wrote out his grievances to the British Monarch in the Declaration of Independence, one of them happened to be as Jefferson states that “HE has endeavoured to prevent the Population of these States; for that Purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their Migrations hither, and raising the Conditions of new Appropriations of Lands”


http://memory.loc.gov/const/declar.html

After the war Washington and his successors will get exactly what the British had prohibited from the colonists. After the revolution they were free to roam through out North America as far as their armies can carry them. Now similar to the Colonists who had just fought for their freedom it was the native population’s turn to fight for its prosperity and freedom. In the war of 1812 the United States accused the British of conspiring with the Native population against the colonists. During this time indigenous populations had already become restless because of US expansion, and found the British as a likely ally during and probably before the war. The United States had its sovereignty violated by the British trading with Napoleon who was in the process of expanding his interests throughout Europe. This war was also fueled by the desire of the US to expand its borders into Canada.


http://www.napoleonguide.com/campaign_1812.htm

http://www.napoleonguide.com/soldiers_tecumseh.htm

The US fits the definition of Empire in the traditional meaning because US tradition, history and even sometimes its legal system is rich with it. In the US Supreme Court case of 1823 Johnson v. M’intosh 21 U.S. 543 a legal dispute erupted over a title to land. Although the facts seem trivial, a Plaintiff received title of land from Piankeshaw Indians while the Defendant received the very same land from the US government. The case decided that the US had greater title to the land than even the indigenous populations. Chief Justice Marshall reasons that “ Conquests gives a title which the courts of the conqueror cannot deny, whatever the private and speculative opinions of individuals may be, respecting the original justice of the claim which has been successfully asserted”. Marshall goes on to say that the US government has inherited its empire from the British government asserting “ limited sovereignty over them, and the exclusive right of extinguishing the title which occupancy gave to them (meaning Indians). These claims have been maintained and established as far west as the river Mississippi, by the sword. The title by conquest is acquired and maintained by force. The conqueror prescribes its limits” *589. Marshall then goes on to tell us humanity however restrains us from treating the conquered too inhumanely, however we know what happened to the indigenous populations during this era of US history.
http://www.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/ ... H_1823.HTM
Although sometimes courts do rule in ways that are favorable to indigenous populations that certainly didn’t stop Andrew Jackson, the hero of New Orleans.
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/homeland/timeline.html

http://www.allthingscherokee.com/Articl ... ckson.html

There is an economic rationale through taking land. In the legal theory of Adverse Possession an owner takes property from another individual for the taker believes to be more productive, thus creating economic efficiency. As long as he can satisfy the prerequisites such as the statute of limitations the taker can own someone else’s land. Although the west was not necessarily acquired through adverse possession the rationale for such takings is quite similar. As a result in the American West, the settlers took native lands believing they were being more efficient and more productive. The Native populations however viewed the settlers as thieves. (Cooter and Ulen Law and Economics 143) As a result Indian Wars and US expansion had been a constant in US history.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/Indianwa.html

The Mexican American War had also resulted in even greater expansion of US territory. Afterwards slavery will be expanded west into terrain once in the hands of Mexico (who probably took it from the natives) where slavery had been outlawed by the Mexican government. A few decades after that you have yourself one impressive empire.

In the Spanish American War people rallied behind the slogan of “Remember the Maine” Although it was widely believed that the Maine was destroyed due to the fault of the Spanish, Navy investigators have discovered that explosion most likely came from within the ship.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2& ... tml&e=6251

Whatever the sparks for war were it resulted in US expansion. There is so much to US imperialism that one just can’t include into a single paper. But here is an interesting site.
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/toc.html
And then there is the conquest of Hawaii
http://www.furman.edu/president/column11.htm

Such American policies even converted Mark Twain to becoming an anti-imperialist
http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/twain/
When it comes to Imperialism the US was just like every other nation-state that choose to pursue its interests abroad. The US is just a little bit better at it then other nation-states. Modern Imperialism, if you think 1400s is modern began with the Spanish and the Portuguese, however as their influenced waned France and Britain took over. Soon rising powers like US, Germany, and Japan began playing the game. These nations were just continuing an old tradition that who knows when had started. Of course we can all admit that the methods of Imperialism sure have changed since slavery and appropriating land or concentration camps or propping up good little leaders that are friendly to yours. Such as the emperor of China who was used as puppet by the Japanese. Although in some ways he was the legitimate ruler of China. Unfortunately the nationalists and communists got sick of him. But all in all, its still imperialism, as the Athenians said to the Melians,

“Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do”.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/melian.htm
User avatar
By DTguitarist99
#207687
Nearly all countries were founded on conquest...should we call them all empires? Conquest for aquiring terroritory was accepted then, while now it is not. A traditional empire is not a country that was founded by conquest, but one that conquers foreign lands and treats them as second class citizens. There is always a mother country and its subjects in an empire. The US expanding west was not like this, the lands gained were incorparated completely into the US. Therefore it was not an empire then. The US does not conquer foriegn lands and place them as subjects to itself, so it doesn't fit the traditional definition of empire now either. Puerto Rico can freely declare itself independent any time it wishes.
User avatar
By Lt. Spoonman
#207698
On a side note... completely unrelated to this topic... Isildur, you are a dishonor to your namesake. Isildur fought against the great evil empire of Sauron, he did not support the great evil empire of Bush. Isildur only went to war when war was absolutely necessary to stop the spread of a great evil. He joined in a great alliance with elves and dwarves and all free men of middle-earth to combat Sauron's imperialistic dogma, he did not attempt to piss the hell out of his former allies. To sum it all up, Isildur was the man, and most likely had a huge cock. You are a dumb, imperialistic, warmongerer, and undoubtably have very limited equipment.
By Gothmog
#207718
Like I said before, when have we ever tried to gain permanent control of a country through a puppet regime?


-Panama(which, btw is a creation of the USA), Nicaragua, Guatemala, Haiti, Iran, Grenada, Afghanistan and Iraq next on list (permanent, of course, is a too strong word, no domination is "permanent"

We'll have to wait for some research to be done on excatly how high that will be.


-Agreed


You would probably considered this biased, but I really doubt they are making this story up:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... wirq25.xml


Here is it:

"But The Telegraph can reveal that it was all a cynical charade. Iraqi doctors say they were told to collect dead babies who had died prematurely or from natural causes and to store them in cardboard boxes in refrigerated morgues for up to four weeks - until they had sufficient corpses for a parade."

They portrayed an image of mothers in mourning for their recently dead children," he said. "It was too dangerous not to follow the orders. We were very afraid. The families were afraid, too."

Dr al-Douri showed The Telegraph the morgue where babies' bodies would be stored in cardboard boxes before being transferred to wooden coffins carrying their names and sometimes photographs.

Dr Amer Abdul al-Jalil, the deputy resident at the hospital, said: "Sanctions did not kill these children - Saddam killed them. The internal sanctions by the Saddam regime were very effective. Those who died prematurely usually died because their mothers lived in impoverished areas neglected by the government.

"The mortality rate was higher in areas such as Saddam City because there was no sewerage system. Infectious diseases were rampant.

-Well, this don´t proves nothing, except the fact that Saddam used its dead babies for propaganda purposes (which, btw, isn´t evil in itself, I would have done the same thing if it was useful to influenec the world opinion in order to lift the sanctions). But the big truth here is that most of those deaths happened in impoverished areas. And the embargo made those areas even poorer, so it increased mortality. Those Shiite areas were already relatively neglected before 1991, but as the country was richer, there were better helthcare for all (and btw, Iraq had the better healthcare of ME before the embargo). On Saddam putting all money into the military, this seems ridiculous when we see how his army was in horrible shape in this war.
-Finally: sanctions effects are seen as a statistical increase in deaths, but it is impossible to define who died as a result of sanctions and who died of natural deaths, since all the deaths are "natural", except those by external causes, like accidents. Poorly nourished children usually die as a result of infections, which may be considered "natural"....
-And more: the oil for food system allowed around US$200,00 per capita to Iraqi people. This would be enough for food and medicines. This gives us US$0,50/day for people to satisfy their basic necessities. This is half the misery line of the UN (US$1/day). Just for comparisons, a country like the US expends US$3500 per capita just in healthcare, the more eficient public systems of European countries expend US$1500-2000.

I was talking about the land originally given to Israel, which it has a right to have since it was granted by the UN.


-Actually they grabbed more than what was given to them by UN. But you know very well that I was talking about the occupied territories.

This is a myth. 92% of the land in Israel is owned by the government officially, and it is only available for lease. No, arabs cannot buy that land. But neither can Jews.


-But this land is not disposable to arabs, althought it was confiscated from them. I´m all for public ownership of land, if it is not for ethnical cleansing purposes. Unequal access to land amounts to diference of property rights.

That doesn't quite equal apartheid...


-It was one of the main instruments used by South Africa to keep its system. The only diference is that South Africa used racial criteria and Israel uses a religious criteria. If Israel had a civil code, then a large number of inter racial marriage would eventually turn the country in a multiethnic democracy, instead of a Jewish state.


International law includes preemptive attacks on an imminent threat as defensive war. Just look deeper into the histroy of the war, you'll see that it was the Arab states who were the agressors. They massed their troops up along Israel's borders and were preparing for attacking when Israel launched its preemptive attack.


-I know this version, but the extremely poor levels of alert of their AF (which wasn´t even flying CAP over their bases) and the fact that the Egyptian Army was caught by complete surprise suggests that Nasser wasn´t being serious about an attack. That´s thing I must study better

Hundreds of millions of people live in such conditions, yet they don't become terrorists. They don't need heavy equipment to conduct guerilla warfare instead of terrorism.


-The number is smaller when you consider those who live in these conditions as result of foreign occupation. Nationalism is a strong reason for revolt in these cases. And you are wrong on weapons. Giving the excellent weapons and training of IDF soldiers, it is a suicide to fight them withouth good top level anti armor equipment.
Last edited by Gothmog on 07 Jun 2003 02:01, edited 3 times in total.
By Gothmog
#207719
IsildurXI wrote:Nearly all countries were founded on conquest...should we call them all empires? Conquest for aquiring terroritory was accepted then, while now it is not. A traditional empire is not a country that was founded by conquest, but one that conquers foreign lands and treats them as second class citizens. There is always a mother country and its subjects in an empire. The US expanding west was not like this, the lands gained were incorparated completely into the US. Therefore it was not an empire then. The US does not conquer foriegn lands and place them as subjects to itself, so it doesn't fit the traditional definition of empire now either. Puerto Rico can freely declare itself independent any time it wishes.



-The US don´t fits well in the notion of an empire. But don´t forget empire and imperialism mean diferent things. Look at a dictionary and we can clarify this topic better. And you are right at one point. US expansionism was diferent from European colonialism because citizens of incorporated lands got full US citizenship (the same thing, however, can be said about the USSR, and, to some extent, to the Ottoman and Austrain empires). Exceptions were Philipines (where the US troops repressed brutally a movement for independence, killing almost 10% of the population), the Indian nations (who were almost exterminated and he survivors only got US citizenship by early 1900´s) and the Central American US puppets (Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama and Cuba)

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