Confederacy needs to die! - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#201071
I live in the rascist south of the USA, North Carolina, where everyone thinks the Confederacy was right to secede.

I am tired of hearing the argument "The civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights." Well, they're right: States' rights to own slaves!

Every event that caused tension and led up to the Civil War WAS about slavery.

The Confederate flag is almost as insulting as the swastika. It should be taken down from public places.
By Kov
#201196
Yes, I agree with you. Many call it a sign of hate, and it is. Much like the swastica and some few others. In many ways it should be torn down and burned away ;)

However, it is the right of the people, much like in my room I have a Nazi flag, along with a jewish, chinese, USSR, Imperial Japanise, American, etc...

But then again that is a Flag colection, not a sign of hate. Especialy the Nazi Flag and Jewish flag hanging side by side.
By Proctor
#201220
I agree. To me the confederate flag is a symbol of racism. I don't understand how anyone could fly it with pride.
By Comrade Koatna
#201240
I agree completely. I never really undersood the reasons for such an amount of hate that these people portrayed! All of those damned neo-nazis and such all should just let the past die and realize tht we are all human maybe just a bit different in our own ways.
By Kov
#201434
Personaly hate groups and orginizations that vadalize, threatm, and hurt, should be dealt with FORCE. Send in a Swat team to break up the mob...

Free speach, go ahead. But threats and pain is not a freedom.
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By Boondock Saint
#201471
The confederate flag.

I am white, so it doesnt represent racism to me ... why? Cause it represented white people ... but I sure as hell don't hold it against any black people who hate the sight of it. I fully understand why that flag represents slavery and racism to those whose ancestors were oppressed under it ... but at the same time ... no one alive was a slave inside the US. At least, not with it being legal (I say this last part knowing there are still forms of slavery that no gov't could ever get rid of.)

To me the confederate flag represents secession and all forms of secession should be stamped out and those who support it should be done away with. There is no room for rebellion or the vile scum who would see the union seperated.

I say burn that damn flag and any state house that flies it.

But, thats just me.
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By Ymir
#201885
Taken from: http://www.kusd.edu/schools/lance/plati ... sters.html

"Southern states undoubtedly had the legal right to secede from the Union. In the preamble of the Constitution, it is stated that the Constitution was written to establish justice and to promote the general welfare of its people. However, stifling someone's main source of economic wealth, as the North did to the South's use of slavery, which was legal at the time of the South's secession, is not just to the South and does not promote the South's general welfare. It is a violation of the South's liberty. Therefore, when the Constitution is no longer benefiting the people, "it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such a government . . . . and to alter or abolish it," as it is stated in the Declaration of Independence. It became even more apparent that the South's liberty was in jeopardy when Lincoln was elected president in 1860 without a single vote from the South. This proved that the South had no power or say in their own government.

In Article1, Section 10 of the Constitution, it states all of the rights denied to the states. Not here, nor anywhere else in the Constitution, does it forbid the states not to secede. In fact, Amendment 10 says that all rights not specifically denied to the states belong to the states. Therefore, according to the Constitution, it was perfectly legal for the Southern states, or any state for that matter, to secede. In Article 4, Section 3, it states that no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state. However, in 1862, the state of West Virginia was formed completely within the borders of Virginia. When President Lincoln allowed West Virginia to secede from Virginia, he was clearly admitting what the Constitution already implied: secession was legal. Lincoln recognized that West Virginia was an individual state, even after its illegal secession. Therefore, Lincoln should have recognized the Confederacy as an independent nation, for, unlike West Virginia's act, the Confederacy's act was indeed legal.

When the colonists of America declared Independence from England, less than one hundred years before South Carolina seceded from the Union, we did so because we felt our rights as 'Englishmen' were not being acknowledged, and our government was not treating us fairly. The North does not question the judgement of those people when they broke away from their mother government, because the colonists were protecting what they felt was their jeopardized liberty. When South Carolina broke away from the U.S., it was because they felt that their rights as Americans were not being acknowledged, and that their government was not treating them as fairly as those people who lived in the north. Most importantly, the South's right of liberty was jeopardized. The South seceded in order to form a "more perfect union" and in doing so broke no laws. So in fact, the South had every reason and every legal right to secede from the United States of America. "



And now for my words on this topic;


Slavery was not the cause of the Civil War. Slavery was a key issue used to secede from the Union. The Civil war started because Fort. Sumter's garrison refused to leave, and also they kept the port blocked. The Confederacy, like any other government, saw this as an act of aggression, and fired on the fort. There was only one casuality, and he died because of a faulty cannon.

The more northerly Confederate states were generally willing to stay in the Union and seceded only after Lincoln demanded all states supply troops to put down the "rebellion". This action and this wording clearly demonstrates that Lincoln had no respect for the Constitution and was attempting to fundamentally redefine the nature of the federal government. The state of Virginia had previously voted against secession, and many future Confederate officers had opposed secession, but Lincoln showed them that drastic action was required. Lee put it best when he said that a union that had to be maintained through force of arms held no charm.

Some people believe that Confederates who had sworn to protect and defend the Constitution upon joining the US Army were traitors to their nation. This ignores the nature of the pre-war federal government, which in fact was forever perverted from the original intent of the founding fathers. At the time, the American people were citizens of individual states which were members of the United States, so when a state seceded, the citizens of the state were no longer affiliated with the national government.

Bottomline: The Constitution does not prohibit secession. All the Founding Fathers agreed on this, and it is impossible to think that the states would have agreed to a Union if there was no way to leave it. So the Constitution did not create an all-powerful national democracy but rather a confederation of states in which the rights of the states and the people were protected. The existence of the electoral college, the Bill of Rights, and US Senate clearly shows this, and although it is frequently ignored, the 10th Amendment specifically states that the rights not given to the federal government are the rights of the states and of the people. But if states do not have the right to secede, they have no rights at all. The Civil War destroyed the government created by the founding fathers by the might makes right method, a method the Republicans of the time used to quash Confederates and loyal Democrats alike. Although the Civil War freed the slaves, it ultimately enslaved us all. Continued bitterness by many southern people and defenders of the Constitution becomes understandable when you see the Civil War as an unjust war of conquest, or to many - the Second War of Independence.

Interesting Facts:

Lincoln himself was a racist, having stated his belief that black people were inferior. He opposed inter-racial marriage and supported a constitutional amendment to ship black people to Africa, Central America, and the Caribbean. Many Northerners were also racist. Laws were passed prohibiting emigration of former slaves into several Northern states, and white Union troops regularly insulted their black comrades. The 1863 draft riot in New York City involved mobs of potential draftees murdering defenseless black people in order to demonstrate their unwillingness to fight for emancipation. The Emancipation Proclamation was issued well into the war with the main purpose of preventing foreign intervention. The Proclamation freed slaves only in certain parts of the Confederacy, where Lincoln had no legal and little real authority. Slaves in the North, where the federal government had legitimate authority, were freed only after the war.

During the "Reconstruction" period, military governors were sent to take over Southern territories? Martial Law was declared and the South was militarily occupied.



If you value the constitution of the United States, the ideals of it's Founding Fathers, then you should not insult the confederates and denigrate their cause.

Image
User avatar
By Boondock Saint
#201910
Ymir

I don't much care about 'right' and 'wrong' ... I care about the rebellion and it needing to be crushed. As it was. I am glad the southern states are still part of the US and I feel there is no need for a flag that represented the CSA as it is a rebel flag ... a direct challenge to the US.

Again, I dont see how the logic in the world can change the fact that blacks view the confederate flag as Jews might view the swatstika.

Oppression is oppression.

Hell, I wouldnt fault a native American tribe who views the US flag as a Jew might view a swatstika ... but it dont matter to me, they lost, end of story. This is the way of the world.

I see more bad coming out of the rebel flag then good, so I say get rid of it.

But, thats just me.
By Alhazen Al-Rashid
#201911
You gotta ask, would Germany allow certain regions to still fly the Nazi flag? Does the russian federation still allow the flying of the hammer and sickle?
User avatar
By Siberian Fox
#201912
Does the russian federation still allow the flying of the hammer and sickle?


Yes, check out the sig of a guy called Interrupt_00h in the archive:
http://www.politicsforum.org/soviet/vie ... php?t=4288 the answer to your question is deninitely yes.

In fact, looking at that thread... we had quite a radical bunch back there :eek:

Perhaps I should add an 'Unmoderated' forum to the board where anything goes... :hmm:
By Tovarish Spetsnaz
#201917
Does the russian federation still allow the flying of the hammer and sickle?


Absolutely...Even many Russian Army units still have the hammer and sickle as the emblem of the Red Army...And certainly the red flags appear in every demonstration...

Considering that the CPRF gets the most votes of any party...the red falg is pretty popular I would say...
By GlobalJustice
#201921
Ymir, the bottom line is, the Civil War was about slavery, it wouldn't have happened without slavery.

Fort Sumter occured at the height of tensions, tensions that came from the issue of slavery.
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By Ymir
#201924
"I don't much care about 'right' and 'wrong' "
Do you care about the Constitutional rights?

"Oppression is oppression."
The kind of oppression enforced upon the southern states when Union troops occupied the South and set up Military governments to keep order?

"Ymir, the bottom line is, the Civil War was about slavery, it wouldn't have happened without slavery. "
The Confederate States seceding and the Civil War were both about the soverignty of individual states. Slavery was a key issue, but if the South's economy had relied on coal mines, and the Union proclaimed coal mines to be outlawed, it would have been the same.


The Confederate States of America were only seperate from the union for approximately four years. Slaves had been suffering under the UNION for over 10 times that long. When the Union decided it had enough of that, it invaded the Southern states and proclaimed a rebellion. How could they rebel against their own government? They did not; they seceded.

Once again the totalitarian regime of the United Slaves of America represses and kills for its own power.

>: this emoticon only begins to express my rage.
User avatar
By Boondock Saint
#201946
They did not; they seceded.


Matters not what you call it, they fought the union and they failed. The south enjoys the same freedoms as the north and is part of the union now and forever ... or until the union falls, whichever comes first.

But, if in my life time some silly southern folk decide they want to rebel or secede if you prefer then I say hang em all and burn their houses and the houses of their freinds.

But in truth ... or at least imo there are but a handful of folk who would stand against the union, most are more then happy with the lot they have been handed. Not to mention all the blacks in the union who would be more then happy to crack some rebel skulls ...

Do you care about the Constitutional rights?


Somewhat but not as much as others. The state comes before the individual.

The kind of oppression enforced upon the southern states when Union troops occupied the South and set up Military governments to keep order?


Perhaps if the southerners could play nice that wouldnt have been needed. But in the end I think those in the south made out just fine and are more then free to do as they please within the union just as anyone in the north or west are free.

Its strange to most of us in the north how deeply some in the south hate the north or the US in general. Strange how some in the south still consider the war something undone ... in the north we dont give it any thought at all, it matters not to us ... it was a long time ago, longer then any living man has been alive ... no one cares up here ...

Most of those i meet from the south dont believe me when I say that ... they think we still harbor some feelings or something ... we dont, the north forgot about it a long time ago ...

Now all thats left is some southerners holding onto their resentment ...

Sad really.
By Beet Juice
#203081
Ymir,

I care about constitutional rights but your interpretation is just that. The fact is, the constitution denies states the right to secede because secession means states withdraw all their obligations under the constitution, and the constitution clearly prohibits that.

That being said, I think if the South wants to secede, LET IT. Yes, reverse the verdict of the Civil War, why not? If they hate us so bad, let them leave. The only problem with succession in 1861 is that it was declared by state legislators, not statewide referenda. All Congress has to do is pass an amendment to the constitution legalizing Confederate secession. There should be a referendum across the entire South on succession just like in Quebec, and if they approve it, SO LONG SUCKERS. By the way, Bush will have to promptly resign as president if he wishes to remain a resident of Texas. But my guess is the referendum will be defeated 20 to 1 as Southerners come crawling back to beg for more federal aid like the TVA.
By Kov
#203083
Such is the World Ymir. Many see Communists as bad people (in many ways they are right), Capitalists (Ditto to the Previos Statement), Socialists( " ), Nazis ( " ), just name it.

There is society for all of us. Confederacy or not, right or wrong, most people see it as a sign of hate, be it one or not.
By smithbrian86
#203116
Well the Confederacy is dead, sure their are some racists who like to use the flag to represent their views, but they might as well be using the swastika. I am in favour of disrupting anyone attempting to emulate behaviour of the confederacy..... but the Confederacy can never die, its forever locked into history. Forgive, but never forget.

Brian Smith
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By RedCommunist
#206403
I am a great follower of the American Civil War. I believe the war was a just cause, though glad the Union won, am angry on how it turned out. When two brothers fight, and one wins, the winner shalt spit on his brother. To me that flag is the sign of history, the sign of 620,000 dead soldiers fighting in the last war that was over love of nation and state. That is not a flag of racism, the rebels did not go out and kill slaves as their motive. The south fought for freedom, the north fought for reunion. Only till 1863 did it come to be over slaves. It is not a sign of hate but a sign of Americas rich history, why we are here, how we are here, and that we will never leave this earth.
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By Demosthenes
#206404
ooooooo....
this emoticon only begins to express my rage.
Well you know what, I'm southern, and I laugh at your so called rage. How ironic that slave owning rascists claim they were oppressed by the union, that moronic argument doesn't fly.

For all you know I've been raised around black folks my whole life. For all you know some of my best friends are black. I could care less what those who would perpetuate what these friends of mine see as a hate symbol think. This is a question of simple plain bull headed stubbornness which flies in the face of compassion. Wrapped around a neat little argument that seems at face value to be more complex than it is. How arrogant and disrestpectful that is. The rebel flag offends me and this emoticon: >: can't possily reveal how disappointed I am to learn of your opinion.

I agree with Boondock on this, any rebels show up they can stand in line to get boots in their asses.
By briansmith
#206449
I'm of the opinion that the Civil War was more a result of a lack of understanding between the North and the South that traces all the way back to the colonial days. I recall posting about this theory before, and I used it for one of the essays in the American History AP exam. Let me try to keep this concise:

The Northern colonies were usually focused more around manufacturing, or what form of manufacturing could take place in the late 1700s, and, to a slightly lesser extent, general trade. The South, on the other hand, had much more land which they had to farm, be it for tobacco or other cash crops. Now, let's think about this for a second:

The North has a town-based society at this period. The South, on the other hand, is far more isolated in nature. Lots of space, not a lot of towns. This is the main reason, I think, for plantation homes. I believe most historians would agree.

Now, when you have less people down south than you do up north with more land and more physical labor that needs to be done, you honestly can't do it all on your own. So what did the South do? They got slaves.

Fast forward to 1860. It's been basically 100 years, now, of you working with slaves to make your business work. Regardless of how immoral and sickening the concept is, it's the norm for you. It's your life. Now there's a new President who is threatening your right to live your life the way you have, the way your father had, the way your grandfather had, and so on. It's only a natural reaction to pull away and want to fight to keep your standard of living.

Now, I'm not trying to defend the concept of slavery. I think it's despicable. But, I do believe the South not only had the legal right to secede, but I can understand why they would do it. Coming from a liberal in New Jersey, maybe that seems surprising to you. As far as the flag goes, the Confederacy is dead. Put the damn flag away. Hang it in your living room if you really require to see it every day.

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