[Simon Ostap]

*note, I put this here because according to the simulations source, this game is historically accurate, however if any administration believes it would be more fitting in one of the other sections, I'll understand your moving it*

Firstly let me apologize for not giving you a direct link, but, http://www.the-underdogs.org does not allow direct linking to their files. What i'd like anyone who's interested to do is go to this site scroll down the 'themes' menu to political (or it might even be historical) and find a simulation titled 'Stalin's Dilemma'.

This absolutely marvelous little application is in essence the five year plans, and it allows you to match yourself against everyone's favourite (or least favourite) soviet dictator Stalin.

You essentially must in three turns, industrialize the country, build an army to deflect the approaching Fascist invasion and, if you think you can, kill fewer soviet citizens then Stalin.

Now, I know there is some discrepency among just how many proletariates died during collectivization and the modernization of Russia, but the game puts the number at 10 million, which I personally don't think is that far fetched (I'm sure some historians agree)

It's very easy to find that preparing the country for the attack without killing anyone is an absolute impossibility. I've played through this twice so far. The first time I was ranked as humane, which didn't mater once the nazi's had crushed me, and the second time my army was wonderfully prepared, sadly, at the cost of over 15 million lives. Apparently, my brutallity was used by the nazi's to justify their invasion.

Again, sorry I can't and won't link you directly too it, but if anyones interested in taking the time to get it, I think it's well worth the time, the site is filled with great freeware irregardless.

[Demosthenes]

Now, I know there is some discrepency among just how many proletariates died during collectivization and the modernization of Russia, but the game puts the number at 10 million, which I personally don't think is that far fetched (I'm sure some historians agree)

OMG! TS is gonna have your balls! Beware his wrath. 10 Million indeed! You obviously haven't read the internal Soviet documents revealing otherwise. Oh this is gonna get brutal...Simon Ostap= eunich!

[Khenlein]

TS is a spaz,

Don't take him seriously Simon if he posts a typical long winded "rebuttal" that "proves" that Stalin was responsbile for 3 deaths and a partial suicide.

[briansmith]

I doubt I will download and play the game myself, but I would definitely be intrigued to hear as to whether or not any of our poser Commies can win the game & kill less folks than Stalin did. Perhaps the GREAT AND MAGNFICIENT SUPERNIUS (all bow) and his unending wisdom can do it. Or maybe he'll just make it up like everything else.

[Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu]

i downloaded it a few months ago,and i can always get an excellent miltary,and sometimes excellent political stability,but i always get AWFUL industrial production.anyone who has played it have any tips?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Either way...Stalin was LESS responsible for the "10 million" deaths (or 1 or 60 or 5 trillion...whatever number you want)....than Clinton was for 1.2 million deaths in Iraq...than Nixon was responsible for 4 million deaths in Vietnam...than Truman was responsible for 3.5 million deaths in Korea.

Shall I go on?? So before you open your mouth...think a little of how many tens of millions you have DIRECTLY killed with bullets and bombs...

Ignorance is no excuse for pulling numbers out of your ass. Do you people even know what those numbers mean?? What do you think Stalin went around shooting 10 million people?? No no...How many people were sentanced to death?? About 300,000...thats the number killed. How many people died of other causes?? How am I supposed to know...5,000 people die in US prisons every year...30,000 people die in Russian prisons every year TODAY...Who is responsible for that??? In America...its AIDS and drugs that kill them...in Russia its TB that kills them. But when it comes to Stalin...Stalin killed them. So yes people died...JUST AS THEY DIE TODAY. 11,000 people died this summer in France from the heat. What do you think that heat and drought would have done to Europe in the 1930s??

Ignorance is no excuse...so I am not going to waste my time. "Historians" who waste their time writing a "number" that Stalin "killed" aren't historians. Because if I were to write a "number" that Clinton killed for example...I'd get about 10 million as well...if I added up all the people in the US who died from poverty, lack of health care, drugs, police violence, AIDS, EXPLOITATION,...and added to the millions he killed with bullets and bombs in other countries.

Great...Stalin "killed" 10 million in 30 years...Clinton did it in 8 years.

Ok...

[Kov]

"was LESS responsible for the "10 million" deaths"

Please explain "less" so that all can hear.

"Ignorance is no excuse...so I am not going to waste my time. "Historians" who waste their time writing a "number" that Stalin "killed" aren't historians. Because if I were to write a "number" that Clinton killed for example...I'd get about 10 million as well...if I added up all the people in the US who died from poverty, lack of health care, drugs, police violence, AIDS, EXPLOITATION,...and added to the millions he killed with bullets and bombs in other countries"

Applying your same math, Stalin killed 10 million on top of all of that? Now this is truly woth the text books is it not?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Applying your same math, Stalin killed 10 million on top of all of that? Now this is truly woth the text books is it not?

Now you can try and be stupid about it...as you have...or you can try using logic for 5 minutes. What is this number??? What does it imply?? What does it include?? Is this the number of people who have died as a result of a general policy of Stalin...as a result of a general condition in society...as a result of a general development of industry or medicine or agriculture...as a result of the general conditions of the time...or...as a result of them actually having a bullet put in their head???

If you are implying that 10 million people or any such obsurd number of people were...EXECUTED...than of course you are wrong. USSR Archives show this to be absolutely not true...the general number of people executed in the 30 years was around 300,000.

If on the other hand the number represents the people who died as a result of the general conditions of society in the 1920s and 30s...than by those same methods Clinton is responsible for 10 million deaths as well...

But of coure that would be as obsurd as me saying Chirac killed 11,000 French this summer...becasue he did not provide adequate protection for them against the heat.

I have already shown...that using Robert Conquest's methods for determingin deaths in Ukraine...the US also suffered 3-4 million deaths at the same time as a result of the Great Depression. Is this true??? I don't know...if you are so keen at throwing around absurd numbers like "Stalin killed 10 million"...than I can just as easily throw around absurd numbers like "Hoover killed 4 million"...and "Clinton killed 10 million"!

Same methods for getting the number...and yet one is accepted as fact while the other is laughed at. Why??

[smashthestate]

Tovarish, you are just showing how much YOU DON'T know about this famine.

First of all, as you have pointed out to me in the other thread about Stalin being evil or not, you said that this famine was caused by a drought. First of all, that assumption is totally absurd, because the famine occured in the winter of 1932-33. I've never heard of a drought during the winter.

Secondly, it is logical to assume that the weather conditions during the winter liminted the production of food from the Ukrainian farms. Yes, this is true, the weather did just that. However, the reason we blame Stalin is because he forced maximum extraction of food from these farms for what he called "forced collectivization." The reason so many people starved is because they had to food because it was all being taken by the government. So YES, it was NOT a natural famine.

As a result of his policies, Stalin was responsible for these deaths. The Ukrainians pleaded to Stalin to stop taking all of the food to produce, but he (on several occastions) refused to stop or even change his policy.

And then you told me that the reason so many sources say the famine DID happen, and the reason so few sources say the famine DIDN'T happen, is becase "the CIA has lots of money."

Hmm, most all of the books and documents published on this famine were published BEFORE the CIA even existed. What exactly did you mean by this?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

First of all, that assumption is totally absurd, because the famine occured in the winter of 1932-33. I've never heard of a drought during the winter.

And what little birdy told you that?? LOL...

And what kind of famine lasts 3 months...? Jesus tap dancing Christ!!

The reason so many people starved is because they had to food because it was all being taken by the government

Yeah ok...must have been the same little birdy who told you this...

And the government was taking this food and doing what with it?? Stuffing it in their pants??

The Ukrainians pleaded to Stalin to stop taking all of the food to produce, but he (on several occastions) refused to stop or even change his policy.

And than a brave Ukrainian named Moses rose up...and warned the evil Stalin "Let my people go!!"...and there was locust and plague upon the USSR, and Stalin's first born died...and the Ukrainian people were given independance and evil Stalin was struck down by the might hand of God himself!!...for so it was written in John 3:24 (or was it Signal 9/39??)

Oh please...you are so ignorant...and so 12 years old...

-----

Now for some real facts...

The collectivization process started already in 1929...By 1930 60.8% of Ukrainian families had collectivized.

This led of course to increased Kulak resistance (you do know who the Kulaks are?? ...if not than thats a sign that you shouldn't be discussing with me on this ) The Ukraine was the scene where the Kulaks put up their fierscest resistance. They formed armed bands which went around destroying collectives, threating peasants not to join collectives, killing Party officials, desrupting transports and burning trains...and so forth. The peasants themselves retaliated by killing Kulaks...so the Army was called in to put down the Kulaks and calm down the peasants.

As a result between 1930-31 some 68,000 Kulaks were arrested and charged with various acts of terrorism, sabotage and murder.

However the Kulak sabotage had a disasterous effect. The Kulaks owned most of the land and cattle in the USSR before collectivization. The Kulaks often prefered to kill their animals rather than let them be collectivized by the peasantry. As a result, the number of animals inthe USSR dropped dramatically.

Second, in the years 1930,31,32 there were drought years in the Ukraine and in most of the Caucasses. This led to far greater production. In 1930 for example, the cereal harvast was 83.5 million tons. In 1931-32 as the result of the droughts it was 69.5 and 69.9 million tons respectivly. By 1933 however...when the drought was over and the Kulaks defeated...production was up again to 89.8 million tons...followed by 89.4 and 90.1 million tons in the next 2 years.

So as you can see...there was indeed a very marked decrease in production during 31-32...as a result of 3 years of drought (famines and shortages don't happen in a 3 month period genious!!)

Thirdly, there was a typhus and typhoid fever epidemic in the Ukraine and Caucas...probably agrivated by the drought and shortages that followed. This claimed a lot of people...but you have to realize that such things were common at the time. Epidemics like this ravaged Europe even in the 1930s (in 1920-22 for example Spanish fever killed 20 million people in Europe!!)

--------

Now I am tired of writing this on this forum for the 35th time...and I certainly do believe it is wasted on you.

[Yeddi]

First of all, that assumption is totally absurd, because the famine occured in the winter of 1932-33. I've never heard of a drought during the winter.

Should should come down to Melbourne, we've had a drought for 6 years, and that includes winters, in fact the water restrictions were brought in just in time for winter.

[smashthestate]

Sir Winston Churchill to Joseph Stalin:
"... Have the stresses of the war been as bad to you personally as carrying through the policy of the Collective Farms?"

Stalin:
"Oh, no, the Collective Farm policy was a terrible struggle... Ten million [he said, holding up his hands]. It was fearful. Four years it lasted. It was absolutely necessary..."

Winston Churchill, Memoirs of the Second World War. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1959 p. 633

Hmm....

A totally natural drought, which caused a totally natural famine was "absolutely necessary..." Why would you say something like that when you had no control over it?

"Moscow employed the famine as a political weapon against the Ukrainians in the years 1932-1933. The famine was in its entirety artificially induced and organized."

F. M. Pigido - (an economist who lived and worked in Ukraine during the Famine of 1932-1933) Investigation of Communist Takeover and Occupation of the Non-Russian Nations of the U.S.S.R p. 35

"I can't give an exact figure because no one was keeping count. All we knew was that people were dying in enormous numbers. "

Nikita Khrushchev, Khrushchev Remembers

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Oh you have done so well Smashy...

First quote...Churchill is pulling things out of his ass..Stalin never said that to him.

Second quote...oh well...there were about 50 such "economists", "historians" and "journalists" who calimed to have been in the Ukraine...seen it...taken pictures and so forth. They were all liers and were proven to be liers. Their pictures were all fakes and weer proven so.

And as I said...the damn famine extende wwell into Khazakhistan. There are reports of fields drying up and villages abandoned and shortgaes as far as Novosibirsk...thats near the Mongolian border BTW...

This was a natrual event...

Third quote...Khruschiev was an idiot...who even when his own men gave him numbers from the archives...he ignored them and invented his own numbers by multiplying them by 100.

Now...are we going to talk facts...or what some drunk fat Brit writes in his memoirs?? (the same fat drunk Brit who said he was not affraid of history because he would write it)

[Enigmatic]

USSR Archives show this to be absolutely not true...the general number of people executed in the 30 years was around 300,000.

Official statistics suggest that twice as many executions during the 1937-38 period...

I think it's fair to blame a command economy that continues to export grain for the effects of famine...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Official statistics suggest that twice as many executions during the 1937-38 period...

Yes I am aware of those figures...they come from the NKVD archives. But those are not numbers of people executed...but rather what the NKVD wanted executed. The NKVD did not have that power...and it had to go to other bodies. During this time, many of the NKVD's decissions were overturned and many people were pardoned. How many I don't know...but it is safe to say a very large number.

Even if one looks at the NKVD archives...one gets a number of 700,000 (which is why I say the number is strange...because 600,000 of that 700,000 were supposedly killed in 1937-38?? )

The actual number is probably much lower than that...becasue as I said its NKVD archives and many of the NKVD decissions were overturned especially in 37-38.

I think it's fair to blame a command economy that continues to export grain for the effects of famine...

That had absolutely nothing to do with it...and people keep bringing it up but it is just plain ridiculous. The "famine" was due to a great decline in production in 3 consecutive drought years.

This is exactly the sort of 5th grade economics that most "historians" use...Stalin sold 1-2 million tons of grain...and that led to famine!!...never mind that there was a great decrease in production during this years. No no...that has nothing to do with it. And BTW...the small ammount of grain that was sold...was sold to buy industrial equipment...used to make powerplants and tractors and trucks FOR agriculture...

What do you think?? Stalin sold it so he could build a villa for himself and buy hookers?? Jesus tap dancing Christ!!

[Enigmatic]

This is exactly the sort of 5th grade economics that most "historians" use...Stalin sold 1-2 million tons of grain...and that led to famine!!...never mind that there was a great decrease in production during this years

Are you suggesting 1-2 million tons of grain couldn't have kept 6 million (you would no doubt argue less) from starving to death? Damn those Ukranians must have been fat.
A command economy with humane leadership would have been prepared to make short term cuts in spending in order to alleviate the effects of famine. Stalin may have spent on industrialisation rather than refunishing his dachas, unlike the Tsars, but he appeared to show no more concern for the human cost of such a policy.

[smashthestate]

First quote...Churchill is pulling things out of his ass..Stalin never said that to him.

---

Now...are we going to talk facts...or what some drunk fat Brit writes in his memoirs?? (the same fat drunk Brit who said he was not affraid of history because he would write it)

Actually this didn't originate from Churchill's memoirs at all. There was a publicly held meeting (the press was there are recorded the whole discussion) in Moscow in which Stalin said this. Stalin DID say this, as much as you'd like to think he didn't.

Secondly, you sure are spewing out a lot of what you are calling "facts," but I take it all with a grain of salt, since I've never seen mention of nearly all of what you've said. I'll ask again, for the 50th time, from which source are you getting this information (i.e. the information about the food production amounts, etc.)

[Kov]

Here is some help for our one sided debate:

"If you are implying that 10 million people or any such obsurd number of people were...EXECUTED...than of course you are wrong. USSR Archives show this to be absolutely not true...the general number of people executed in the 30 years was around 300,000."

YOu cannot always trust the "archives", and sadly the initial number if killed "Preachers" of the chirch was some 150,000 if not more. By refrance of others.

"Same methods for getting the number...and yet one is accepted as fact while the other is laughed at. Why??"

Exactly

As for the famin, look it up on the web... the famine WAS natural, however, what Spetsnaz is not telling us, is the fact that stalin had gurads on the villages, that had orders to let no one out. It is in that way that he killed many a person. Furthermore, while this was iccuring, hundreds of tons of grain where exported to other nations as a form of income for the modernization of Russia.

Look it up, then fight me on it.

"And what little birdy told you that?? LOL...

And what kind of famine lasts 3 months...? Jesus tap dancing Christ!! "

Kindly explain it to us... because you have ignored the question still.

"And than a brave Ukrainian named Moses rose up...and warned the evil Stalin "Let my people go!!"...and there was locust and plague upon the USSR, and Stalin's first born died...and the Ukrainian people were given independance and evil Stalin was struck down by the might hand of God himself!!...for so it was written in John 3:24 (or was it Signal 9/39??)

Oh please...you are so ignorant...and so 12 years old..."

Victory at last... sandly, if you look it up, you are the one so "12" years of age. Not only do you insult those that have done nothing to you, but furthermore as stated above, grain was taken and exported for the good of Russia diring those times.

" Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:30 am Quote | | Top | |

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
First of all, that assumption is totally absurd, because the famine occured in the winter of 1932-33. I've never heard of a drought during the winter.



And what little birdy told you that?? LOL...

And what kind of famine lasts 3 months...? Jesus tap dancing Christ!!

Quote:
The reason so many people starved is because they had to food because it was all being taken by the government


Yeah ok...must have been the same little birdy who told you this...

And the government was taking this food and doing what with it?? Stuffing it in their pants??

Quote:
The Ukrainians pleaded to Stalin to stop taking all of the food to produce, but he (on several occastions) refused to stop or even change his policy.


And than a brave Ukrainian named Moses rose up...and warned the evil Stalin "Let my people go!!"...and there was locust and plague upon the USSR, and Stalin's first born died...and the Ukrainian people were given independance and evil Stalin was struck down by the might hand of God himself!!...for so it was written in John 3:24 (or was it Signal 9/39??)

Oh please...you are so ignorant...and so 12 years old...

-----

Now for some real facts...

The collectivization process started already in 1929...By 1930 60.8% of Ukrainian families had collectivized.

This led of course to increased Kulak resistance (you do know who the Kulaks are?? ...if not than thats a sign that you shouldn't be discussing with me on this ) The Ukraine was the scene where the Kulaks put up their fierscest resistance. They formed armed bands which went around destroying collectives, threating peasants not to join collectives, killing Party officials, desrupting transports and burning trains...and so forth. The peasants themselves retaliated by killing Kulaks...so the Army was called in to put down the Kulaks and calm down the peasants.

As a result between 1930-31 some 68,000 Kulaks were arrested and charged with various acts of terrorism, sabotage and murder.

However the Kulak sabotage had a disasterous effect. The Kulaks owned most of the land and cattle in the USSR before collectivization. The Kulaks often prefered to kill their animals rather than let them be collectivized by the peasantry. As a result, the number of animals inthe USSR dropped dramatically.

Second, in the years 1930,31,32 there were drought years in the Ukraine and in most of the Caucasses. This led to far greater production. In 1930 for example, the cereal harvast was 83.5 million tons. In 1931-32 as the result of the droughts it was 69.5 and 69.9 million tons respectivly. By 1933 however...when the drought was over and the Kulaks defeated...production was up again to 89.8 million tons...followed by 89.4 and 90.1 million tons in the next 2 years.

So as you can see...there was indeed a very marked decrease in production during 31-32...as a result of 3 years of drought (famines and shortages don't happen in a 3 month period genious!!)

Thirdly, there was a typhus and typhoid fever epidemic in the Ukraine and Caucas...probably agrivated by the drought and shortages that followed. This claimed a lot of people...but you have to realize that such things were common at the time. Epidemics like this ravaged Europe even in the 1930s (in 1920-22 for example Spanish fever killed 20 million people in Europe!!)"

And I supose this is all from the soviet archives, since that is where all your data comes from, does it not?

"First quote...Churchill is pulling things out of his ass..Stalin never said that to him."

This is an opinion, not a fact.

"Second quote...oh well...there were about 50 such "economists", "historians" and "journalists" who calimed to have been in the Ukraine...seen it...taken pictures and so forth. They were all liers and were proven to be liers. Their pictures were all fakes and weer proven so"

I would love to see those papers, and how are you shure it was not the bullet of a gun that made thier storys so "falce?" We have no fact or evidance... your idea of "It is all lies" sounds like a bad conspiracy theory.

"Now...are we going to talk facts...or what some drunk fat Brit writes in his memoirs?? (the same fat drunk Brit who said he was not affraid of history because he would write it)"

Stop insulting, only a "twelve" year old will insult others that are part of his debate. Have respect, and debate with honor.

[Gothmog]

Tovarish, you are just showing how much YOU DON'T know about this famine.
First of all, as you have pointed out to me in the other thread about Stalin being evil or not, you said that this famine was caused by a drought. First of all, that assumption is totally absurd, because the famine occured in the winter of 1932-33. I've never heard of a drought during the winter.

-Ooops....usually famines happen AFTER a bard harvest, so a drought will usually will cause famine a few months after, usually after the harvest. Eventually, it is possible to delay famine by one year, by eating reserve seeds. I do´n´t know the exact chronology of 1932-33 famine, but there was a sever drought in 1931-32.

Secondly, it is logical to assume that the weather conditions during the winter liminted the production of food from the Ukrainian farms. Yes, this is true, the weather did just that. However, the reason we blame Stalin is because he forced maximum extraction of food from these farms for what he called "forced collectivization." The reason so many people starved is because they had to food because it was all being taken by the government. So YES, it was NOT a natural famine.

-However, the rates od procurement actually decreased in 1932-33, so maximum extraction of food cannot be the main responsible for the famine. What probably happened is that the government overestimated the harvest, and so even the decrease in the procurement rates was not enough to alleviate famine. The Soviet government was not innocent in that one, but this famine was far from "planned" or "deliberate". For more info, go to google and make a research with Mark Tauger and S. Weathcroft.

[Kov]

As I said... it was natural... but no one could leave...