[Beren]

And?

Congratulations.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Congratulations.

[Beren]

:eh:

Congratulations for being an individual and voting accordingly.

[SolarCross]

So far most people have gone for "yes I am an individual". What does that imply for individualism vs collectivism?

[B0ycey]

I am individual fluid.

How do you expect such a question to be discussed? Are you expecting many schizophrenics polling or something?

[SolarCross]

I am individual fluid.

How do you expect such a question to be discussed? Are you expecting many schizophrenics polling or something?

Well this is pofo..

[Beren]

So far most people have gone for "yes I am an individual". What does that imply for individualism vs collectivism?

We're coming to the point really quickly!

[SolarCross]

Do people need to believe they are not individuals for collectivism to work?

[Saeko]

No, I am a sentient swarm of spiders.

Do people need to believe they are not individuals for collectivism to work?

Yes.

[SolarCross]

Yes.

Care to elaborate? What about nationalism? Isn't nationalism a kind of collectivism which doesn't assume or require people to disbelieve their own individuality?

[Victoribus Spolia]

We Are The Borg.

[Saeko]

Care to elaborate? What about nationalism? Isn't nationalism a kind of collectivism which doesn't assume or require people to disbelieve their own individuality?

If people are still thinking of themselves as individuals, then you don't have collectivism.

Isn't nationalism a kind of collectivism which doesn't assume or require people to disbelieve their own individuality?

Nationalism isn't necessarily collectivist.

[LehmanB]

I wonder if there will be difference between westerners and easterners on this topic.

And here I will go on the middle- sometimes yes and sometimes not. Although I considr myself mainly as an individual, when I look at others they behave both individualy and both collectively- there are societies and groups who are also entities- and I think to yself- what a collective world. Including me. So its leteraly 50/50 for me.

[foxdemon]

Other: Cosmologically, I'm not an individual. Biochemically/genetically, my individuality is a permutation of everything else. Culturally, I abstract my identity from social constructs and assume a role in civilization.

"Individuality is only possible if it unfolds from wholeness."

We're vibratory formations passing through everything else. A complex community of gut flora exist within you, is a micro-organism an individual? See, it's relative to where you are in the motion of everything. Being present is an information bias. Being an individual is an interpretation of the present information.

Nice answer. As usual, you transcend polemics and offer a broader perspective.

My answer, given we are both collective and individual entities, can only be humorous. So I voted no.

With apologies to @SolarCross

[youtube]KHbzSif78qQ[/youtube]

[SolarCross]

Is it a performative contradiction to say: "I am not an individual"? Who is the "I" if not an individual? Should it have been "we" instead? Or one of these new-fangled pronouns that the crazy people invented?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

You're a field of energy in a temporary form that believes it is separate.

[Sivad]

Who is the "I" if not an individual?

A centerless web of beliefs, desires, attitudes, dispositions, and propensities that are in constant and perpetual flux.

[SolarCross]

You're a field of energy in a temporary form that believes it is separate.

Empathy only gets one so far, I can't literally see through your eyes, feel your pain or think your thoughts. If you eat, I am not nourished. Your defeat is painful for you, but your defeat for me might be delicious. Whether or not we are composed of energy or temporary it remains that the actual experience of life shows up the lie of collectivism.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

What you're saying is the illusion of ego. Our existence is like that of a drop of water split from the rest of the body of water. It has its own temporary form. Perhaps given time, the addition of amino acids and biochemistry it can be conditioned to think it's separate, but that's not really the case.

Whether our individuality is real because it's real in a very temporary sense before it's lost forever, or whether it's illusory (the first is more accurate, as we are individuals but we are not individuals), it's just a flash of lightning in the dark or a bubble in a stream.

Our language is deeply rooted in dualisms, so it's difficult to explain those concepts as opinion.

[SolarCross]

What you're saying is the illusion of ego. Our existence is like that of a drop of water split from the rest of the body of water. It has its own temporary form. Perhaps given time, the addition of amino acids and biochemistry it can be conditioned to think it's separate, but that's not really the case.

Whether our individuality is real because it's real in a very temporary sense before it's lost forever, or whether it's illusory (the first is more accurate, as we are individuals but we are not individuals), it's just a flash of lightning in the dark or a bubble in a stream.

Our language is deeply rooted in dualisms, so it's difficult to explain those concepts as opinion.

You can say I am an illusion but for me there isn't anything else, hypothetical illusion or not, I am experiencing me but I am not experiencing you except for what I can see of you which at present is just some text on a screen. If I apply Descartes' radical doubt then there is nothing about the universe outside of my experience of my own self that I truthfully can say is not an illusion except for myself, "I think therefore I am". The self in fact is the only thing definitely real.