[MB.]

So how do we actually work to legalize marijuana, now that we have the bullshit out of the way?

[Abood]

I think the best way is to make it a major issue and make its supporters heard. Just organizing a nationwide protest, for example, could be a start. And I say "a start" because I don't believe protests lead to much change in an issue that's already discussed a lot, but for something that many Canadians support (53% believe marijuana should be legalized) but isn't really discussed in government, the first thing to do is bring them together.

The problem, though, is that marijuana legislation doesn't affect many people the way things like the economy affects them.

[Potemkin]

well I was more asking about how youthful your spirit was, but actually I'm the opposite, I love vodka but will treat myself to some scotch on special occasions.

My spirit is 14 years old, and will always be 14 years old. Hey, I'm a guy - we get to the age of 14, then stop maturing, amirite?

My friend grows his own, so I have no qualms.

That's the only way to go. Just be careful about getting caught - the bastards use heat-sensitive cameras now to detect the lights you need to grow cannabis. If you hear a helicopter overhead at the dead of night, switch that shit off, stat!

What is kratom? I haven't heard of that before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom. I also used kava, until the bastards banned it. You'd be surprised how many powerful legal drugs there are out there. Most people smoke weed, and think that's all there is in life. You can actually get high or trip out of your tree without having to risk a criminal record or give money in dark alleyways to scuzzy guys with a BO problem.

[Brio]

I also used kava, until the bastards banned it.

When did they do that? Oh and is Khat (also spelled Qat) legal in the UK? I'm not sure of its legal status in Canada, but legal or illegal unless I find a friend from Somalia/Oman it's impossible to get since the leaves have to be chewed fresh.

give money in dark alleyways to scuzzy guys with a BO problem.

I know that this statement was made in somewhat of a jest but my last coke dealer often wore an expensive suit, and used cologne and deoderant. Of course his best clients were well paid business/goverment workers so his aparel was appropriate for his environment. Just remember that all drug dealers do not fit the drug dealer stereotype.

[Potemkin]

When did they do that?

In 2001 concerns were raised about the safety of commercial kava products. [15] There have been allegations of severe liver toxicity, including liver failure in some people who had used dietary supplements containing kava extract (but not in anyone who had drunk kava the traditional way). Out of the 50 people worldwide taking kava pills and extracts that have had some type of problem, almost all of them had been mixing them with alcohol and pills that could have effects on the liver.[15] The fact that different kava strains have slightly different chemical composition made testing for toxicity difficult as well.

The possibility of liver damage consequently prompted action of many regulatory agencies in European countries where the legal precautionary principle so mandated. In the UK, the Medicines for Human Use (Kava-kava) (Prohibition) Order 2002 prohibits the sale, supply or import of most derivative medicinal products. Kava is banned in Switzerland, France, Germany and The Netherlands[16]. The health agency of Canada issued a stop-sale order for kava in 2002. But legislation in 2004 made the legal status of kava uncertain. The United States CDC has released a report[17] expressing reservations about the use of kava and its possibly adverse side effects (specifically severe liver toxicity), as has the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[18] The Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration has recommended that no more than 250 mg of kavalactones be taken in a 24 hour period.[19] According to the Medicines Control Agency in the U.K., there is no safe dose of kava, as there is no way to predict which individuals would have adverse reactions.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kava

Oh and is Khat (also spelled Qat) legal in the UK? I'm not sure of its legal status in Canada, but legal or illegal unless I find a friend from Somalia/Oman it's impossible to get since the leaves have to be chewed fresh.

From Wiki again:

Canada

In Canada, cathinone is a controlled substance under Schedule III of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (CDSA), meaning it is illegal to possess or obtain unless approved by a medical practitioner. Punishment for the possession of khat could lead to a maximum sentence of three years in prison. The maximum punishment for trafficking or possession with the intent of trafficking is ten years in prison.[27][27]

In 2008, Canadian authorities reported that khat is the most common illegal drug being smuggled at airports [2].

...

United Kingdom

Khat is not a controlled substance in the United Kingdom, and recent attempts to reclassify it were rejected.[35] Because of this, and because of khat's short shelf life, the UK serves as a main gateway for khat being sent by air to North America.[36]

Khat is used by members of the Somali and Yemeni community (mainly men). It is currently legal, although there are calls from some sections of the Somali community for it to be banned. In the UK, cathine and cathinone are Class C drugs. The plant Catha edulis is uncontrolled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khat

I know that this statement was made in somewhat of a jest but my last coke dealer often wore an expensive suit, and used cologne and deoderant. Of course his best clients were well paid business/goverment workers so his aparel was appropriate for his environment. Just remember that all drug dealers do not fit the drug dealer stereotype.

Yes, I know that. I was thinking mainly of the kind of people that penniless students have to contact to buy cannabis. Not that I'd know anything about that, of course.

[Brio]

Wikipedia is once again my friend. Thanks for the info that I was to lazy to look up (my internet constantly timing out doesn't help either).

The only reason I ask about khat is I saw a documentary on Yemen and its khat "problem". I also had a few Somali friends who talked about their chewing khat and how their fathers used to chew it all the time. These two things got me wondering how it felt to chew khat but seeing that in Canada its scheduled I guess I won't be finding out anytime soon.

[Potemkin]

My understanding is that khat is a mild stimulant and euphoric. Long-term use can lead to manic or aggressive behaviour, eventually bordering on psychosis. Hmmm... that might help to explain why Somalis tend to be so fucking crazy.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with khat if I were you. Penalties for possession are quite severe, and the long-term effects of its use are not good.

[Brio]

Personally, I wouldn't bother with khat if I were you. Penalties for possession are quite severe, and the long-term effects of its use are not good.

Some wise advice there. Unfortunately, those two things never stopped me before from buying and smoking meth/crack. Hopefully, as I age my need to make impulsive and self destructive decisions will remit.

[Douglas]

So how do we actually work to legalize marijuana, now that we have the bullshit out of the way?

You need to find a good reason to. You need to find a reason why it should be an exemption, why cannabis above other illegal drugs? That is a fundamental question you have not yet got around.

[kuros_taken]

There shouldn't need to be one. Your/government ideologies do not trump mine, just as mine do not yours. Your request requires we go into the realm of pharmaceutical and drug special interest areas and there is nothing doing there; billions are spent annually to keep the status quo. The proof is there, how marijuana is safer than other legal drugs, yet it it carries no weight because it is shoved out of public view, because it is harmful to the businesses of economic powers that be. My good reason, since you need one so badly, would be to get people to realize that marijuana is not remotely as dangerous as many legal drugs, and to see that marijuana is safer than alcohol and tobacco. If we are arguing where to draw the line on 'this drug is safe' versus 'this drug is not safe' on a list, there will be no end to this debate.

[Potemkin]

My good reason, since you need one so badly, would be to get people to realize that marijuana is not remotely as dangerous as many legal drugs, and to see that marijuana is safer than alcohol and tobacco.

That's not actually a very compelling argument. Saying that legal drug A is more dangerous than marijuana does not logically imply that marijuana should be legalised; it actually implies that legal drug A should be banned. In my view, alcohol and tobacco should be strictly controlled substances. In Scotland, for example, alcohol abuse is having a devastating effect on teenagers' lives. It should not be as freely available as it is. Unfortunately, banning it outright is not a viable option - for cultural reasons, alcohol will always remain a legal drug in Scotland. And Prohibition didn't work out too well in the US, as I recall. But our inability to ban dangerous legal drugs does not imply that we should therefore make some illegal drugs legal. This is a leap of logic.

[kuros_taken]

If were were to sit here and argue down the list of every 'drug' in existence, argue their safety records versus everything else, and try to draw lines as far as what is most dangerous to society, sooner or later it is going to come down to personal ideologies and values. That said, personally, I value marijuana for the culture and sociability I find with it, and if that makes me a criminal then of course I am going to contest the current law. I harm nobody with it, why the hell then must I be put in prison for enjoying it? I don't think I can go anywhere else with this. There is a multitude of scientific/propagandic jargon that doesn't mean a damn thing to me while I light up. I am tired of reiterating meaningless graphs and charts and statistics (which I admit I have done none of here. To find out why, reread the precluding sentence). My reasons for supporting marijuana reform are personal, not quantitative.

[Douglas]

The proof is there, how marijuana is safer than other legal drugs,

But not more so than some other illegal drugs.

So the question remains.

Why marijuana?

and to see that marijuana is safer than alcohol and tobacco.

Well that's not definitively true now is it? As noted previously it's smoke contains more chemicals like HCN.

I harm nobody with it, why the hell then must I be put in prison for enjoying it?

Would you argue this for a heroin or cocaine junkie who funds his habit legally?

[Brio]

Well that's not definitively true now is it? As noted previously it's smoke contains more chemicals like HCN.

This may be true. However, most people don't smoke 20-25 cigarette sized joints a day, as I and others routinely do with cigarettes (I'm down to half a pack a day but before I was a regular pack a day smoker).

I harm nobody with it, why the hell then must I be put in prison for enjoying it?

A few years ago I was quite the coke/E head. I never turned violent and never stole anything to get my fix. I didn't harm anyone except myself, so using your logic why shouldn't those drugs be legal?

Personally I'm of the opinion that prohibition more negatively effects people than the drugs themselves and therefore all drugs should be legal although some may need to be heavily controlled.

[norak]

You're just another criminal wanting his particular crime legalized for convenience.

The OP may or may not be. I'm not sure. But I have never had marajuana. I haven't even tried any other popular drugs like alcohol or tobacco. I am starting ot believe that many drugs like marajuana, cocaine, and even heroin should be legalized to eliminate the crime element. Some ideas include government regulation of drugs, shooting rooms, etc.

As I recall from reading the Lancet medical journal, marajuana is less harmful and less addictive than alcohol or tobacco. However, heroin is more addictive and more harmful than alcohol or tobacco. This is however a good reason to legalize since government regulation of drugs can ensure good quality so that consumers are not harmed.

I believe all drugs should be legalized besides meth and PCP (because people have more aggressive behavior on those drugs.)

As someone else mentioned, even alcohol can make people aggressive.

I suggest that all mind-altering drugs be supplied by the government, and consumers buy and drink (or inject) these drugs within a special room. For example, heroin can be served by the government in heroin shooting rooms. The consumer is watched by scientists, physicians, etc who ensure that a safe amount of the drug is injected. They then allow the consumer to leave only when a government psychologist believes he or she is no longer under the influence of drugs. Government lawyers can also be present to make sure the individual understands the consequences of taking drugs, e.g. effect on health.

The same can apply to alcohol. Within all bars there can be physicians, scientists, psychologists, lawyers, police, etc who ensure that people do not leave drunk and that they do not drink too much alcohol.

How is civic utility maximized by voting? A valid reason might be that many people derive senses of satisfaction and belonging from voting, so therefore voting, for an individual, is rational due to the positive emotions it generates.

This seems like a valid or rational explanation. People vote because of positive emotion from voting. Perhaps it would be more useful, Dave, if you defined what rationality is. Is a rational individual someone whose actions optimally achieve some objective. Can this objective be different for some people, e.g. some people chose to maximize happiness while others opt for truth, money, etc?

If you believe you are rational, I'm curious to know what explanation you have to explain why your posting here is rational.

Is it an individual's duty to be rational at all times or is it rational sometimes to be irrational, e.g. if rationality is optimizion to achieve some objective and if the objective is happiness and if the mental effort required to be rational makes an individual unhappy then it is rational to be irrational.

Simple. By not voting, you save time. By voting, you accomplish nothing and have spent time.

When you vote you don't accomplish nothing. Assuming your vote is counted, then that accomplishes something, however small the effect is. Like I said before, how does your posting here achieve something more meaningful than voting? All action is insignificant compared to something grander. One individual voting may not go against majority opinion. One individual posting something on a message board may not make much impression on others.

[danholo]

The legalization of marijuana is the first step to redeem humanity of its current shackles. I hope the scourge that has arisen from this substance's criminalization will be finished, soon. Just my two cents.

[Sniperwolfe]

I have an opinion that you might all be very angry at, but nontheless...

It seems the main argument regarding marijuana legalization is that currently legal drugs are in-fact, worse. When I hear this argument, I think that we should have more bans rather than less.

I know some of you can't bear the idea of life without the occasional hammering or high but does it not seem like a legitimate solution to you?

I myself drink (although not often), but I find that the majority of people can't actually handle alcohol responsibly. Cost and loss of income would probably be devastating, but it's certainly more jobs.

And cigarettes? Come on, the only reason those are on the streets is because of massive lobbyists groups.

[QatzelOk]

The problem, though, is that marijuana legislation doesn't affect many people the way things like the economy affects them.

Marijuana prohibition is part of en economy of exclusion.

So they're not opposing values, they're related. The fact that marijuana is still illegal demonstrates that neither of our countries is really a democracy. It's a tiny self-interested elite that decides everything based on their own private "needs" for more power and control.

[NYYS]

Explain how having marijuana be illegal results in greater power for the "self-interested elite that decides everything based on their own private needs." It seems like "they" would have more power by making it legal and taxing and regulating it.

Seriously Qatz, what benefit do "they" receive from this?

[QatzelOk]

Seriously Qatz, what benefit do "they" receive from this?

"They" represent big alcohol, tobacco, and several other "entertainment" industries that would be turned into General Motors overnight if marijuana were made legal. Likewise for half the pharma business.

Old industries die hard.