[Typhoon]

Interesting bit of news from the occupied territories:

Ashkenazi: IDF tank hit by Kornet missile
First-of-its-kind incident in Gaza: Lieutenant-General Ashkenazi tells Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee 'massive' anti-tank missile, used by Hezbollah in Lebanon, penetrated tank's outer shell earlier this month, but failed to explode inside. 'Situation in Strip explosive,' he adds
First-of-its-kind incident in Gaza: Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi admitted Tuesday that a Kornet missile had been fired at an Israeli tank earlier this month.
Ashkenazi told the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that the missile penetrated the tank's outer shell but failed to explode inside it. There were no injuries in the incident.
"On December 6, a Kornet anti-tank missile fired for the first time in Gaza hit an IDF tank and penetrated its outer shell. Luckily, the missile did not explode inside the tank. We are talking about a massive missile, one of the most dangerous in the battlefield, which has already been used against the IDF in the Lebanon War."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 66,00.html

First point of interest is that Hamas has Kornet, the missile was notorious during the Lebannon war but is to date a newcomer to Gaza. This is an indication that despite the continued efforts to isolate Hamas there is still a significant flow of weapons across the boarder, including some very capable new systems. Second point of interest is the effect on the tank (potentially a Mk.IV), it penetrated and would most llikely have resulted in the knocking out of the tank. Talk of detonation inside the tank is rubbish as Kornets use a shaped charge warhead with no residual explosive potential, had spall or the jet of the warhead itself hit a munition inside the tank it could have been a different story.

Second point of interest is the Isreali response...

Iron Fist takes a pounding
In the defense industries' fraught battle over anti-tank and anti-personnel carrier missiles, it appears Israel Military Industries is losing ground to Rafael Systems
By Amos Harel

Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi disclosed this week that for the first time, Hamas fired advanced Russian-made Kornet missiles from the Gaza Strip, earlier this month, and damaged an IDF Merkava tank. Such anti-tank capability has, up to now, belonged only to Syria and Hezbollah.

In view of this new threat, the IDF has decided to deploy along the Gaza border the one tank battalion that is equipped with the Windbreaker, a special system used against anti-tank weapons (marketed abroad under the name Trophy ), which was developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems. The image of burned-out tanks destroyed by missiles during the Second Lebanon War is still fresh in Israel's collective psyche. Windbreaker provides substantive defense against such attacks - and makes a good impression in photographs as well.

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, a tough battle is being waged between two state-owned defense industries. One, Rafael, is at the cutting edge of technology, and has been selected to engage in this special tank-defense project for the international market; the project has the potential of bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars in revenues (each such system costs an estimated $200,000 to $300,000 ). On the other side is Israel Military Industries, a company that has floundered for years and is now fighting for survival.

Last summer, the Defense Ministry decided to suspend its investment in a competitive system called Iron Fist, developed by IMI, which would provide special defense to armored personnel carriers (APCs ). IMI had viewed this as its flagship project for years to come. For his part, Defense Minister Ehud Barak is expected to hold additional discussions on this subject before the subject is closed.

Full Story: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-e ... g-1.332673

While the battle between IMI and Rafeal is also interesting the confirmation would mark the second time that Isreali has deployed an anti-missile system against Gaza, the first being Davids Sling designed to shoot down Hamas rockets. The latter system has now been much critisied as despite development being completed the system is yet to deploy in defence of Isreali cities. The reason is that missile defence is just uneconomical, it would bankrupt the Isreal Defence Forces to even attempt to shoot down the rockets. This being the case one cannot help but wonder if the use of a Kornet to elicit a Trophy response is just another if unintentional way of sapping the IDF financially?

[MB.]

Missile defense is a favorite agenda of uninformed blowhard political hawks in the pocket of the military-industrial complex.

[Smilin' Dave]

It is unusual for Hamas to have the Kornet. It would have to have been sent there via Egypt I assume, which I'm pretty sure doesn't have the missile. And it's not like Iran, Syria or Hezbollah would find it easy to put material through Egypt.

Isn't the Kornet supposed to be fairly resistant to active counter-measures on account of it's flight pattern and guidance system? If the military-industrial complex want to show off their new toy, Kornet might not be a good demonstration if it were. Won't get many contracts for a system that only works against missiles more than a decade old. If they wanted proof of concept, the Lebanese military might be more appropriate (Hezbollah might just embarass them with another Kornet).

This being the case one cannot help but wonder if the use of a Kornet to elicit a Trophy response is just another if unintentional way of sapping the IDF financially?

If Trophy works, it will be a loss for Hamas, as it would make it harder for them to attack vehicles. Any missiles they've already acquired would be something of a loss. So long term it could be a good investment for the IDF, which is hardly ideal. Potentially given the Israeli defence industry more money to play with might not be productive either, even if state finances are not helped.

On a related note, is the Hamas investment in home-made anti-tank weapons worth the cost? As far as I know, none of them work that well.

[MB.]

I meant strategic missile defense not active defense, please excuse the confusion!

Isn't the Kornet wire-guided meaning it is effectively impossible to defeat with active counter-measures (besides blasting it with lasers or something?)

As far as I know, none of them work that well.

Any IED big enough...

[Typhoon]

Isn't the Kornet supposed to be fairly resistant to active counter-measures on account of it's flight pattern and guidance system?

Thats correct (got a vid on this but will save it for a more appropriate thread :.), Kornet flies down a laser beam so the only way to suppress the missile is to suppress the gunner, though Trophy works via a hit to kill mechanism which Kornet will be vulnerable to. The big sales boost for Kornet came when it was combat tested in Lebannon by Hizbullah, this is extra confirmation that its warhead is A-grade. There had been some issues vs RPG-29 in terms of performance against T-80 and T-90 tanks during testing in Russia.

If Trophy works, it will be a loss for Hamas, as it would make it harder for them to attack vehicles

This is true in one respect but it will take years for Isreal to roll out Trophy and it will probably never be complete, with a 4+km range missile you should get plenty of options in terms of which targets to attack. Active defence is a lot like Strategic Missile Defence and im not sure I have had it sold to me as yet...

As far as I know, none of them work that well.

As MB, IED are worth the trouble but probably best to leave the shaped charges to the professionals.

[War Angel]

Fellas, an insider's view, if I may.

The state's budget is about to be approved, and the security budget was to be cut. The military wants more, so they're coming up with this "OMFG, a rocket, like, hit and did something to our bestest tank! MOAR MONEYZ NAW!!11" bullshit. Hamas having such advanced AT weapons would be a major concern, indeed. The Kornet isn't quite enough to defeat a Merkava Mk.IV, but it can cause it damage (subsequent hits can defeat it, though), and against the Mk.II, well... it's bad.

I wouldn't be too troubled, though. It may be all fabricated, or just partially (i.e, not a Kornet, did not penetrate...). I believe this is mostly a publicity stunt to raise awareness and get, well, more money.

This is true in one respect but it will take years for Isreal to roll out Trophy and it will probably never be complete

The Trophy system is operational. It has been installed on Israeli tanks since 2009.

[Thunderhawk]

How much does the Kornet (and for that matter, the RPG 29) and a Merkava IV cost?

[Igor Antunov]

Of course the kornet is cheap.

[eugenekop]

I don't understand why we even send tanks to these places. We have the best air force in the middle east, huge amounts of artillery weapons, why do we need to endanger our soldiers? Just bombard the hell of the terrorists with heavy undiscriminating artillery fire.

[Igor Antunov]

The RPG-30 was unveiled in 2008 by the State Research and Production Enterprise, Bazalt as a modern anti-tank grenade launcher designed to address the threat of reactive armor and active protection systems on tanks[1]. Active protection systems (APS) such as ARENA-E, Drozd and Trophy defeat anti-armour munitions by destroying them before they reach the target, the RPG-30 is an intended response to the introduction of these systems.

~wiki sources

[Smilin' Dave]

The Kornet isn't quite enough to defeat a Merkava Mk.IV, but it can cause it damage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wadi_Saluki
One Merkava IV destroyed, another two apparently hit well enough to inflict casualties on the crew. Seems capable enough to me?

I don't understand why we even send tanks to these places. We have the best air force in the middle east, huge amounts of artillery weapons, why do we need to endanger our soldiers? Just bombard the hell of the terrorists with heavy undiscriminating artillery fire.

1. If you consistently lose the public relations war, one day you'll find yourself completely isolated.
2. The 'bombard anything remotely threatening' strategy has been applied in Lebanon and to a lesser extent Gaza in the past, and it hasn't worked. If you don't control the ground, you cannot effectively counter these groups. And if you give them breathing room and plenty of propaganda material, you'll never get rid of them and they'll eventually come up with a reply of their own.

[MB.]

If you consistently lose the public relations war, one day you'll find yourself completely isolated.

Smilin' Dave is correct. The USMC/Army COIN manual by David Petraeus makes this point incredibly clearly. Indiscriminate use of firepower against targets without regard for civilian deaths and casualties is a guaranteed way to lose the war.

[eugenekop]

If you consistently lose the public relations war, one day you'll find yourself completely isolated.
2. The 'bombard anything remotely threatening' strategy has been applied in Lebanon and to a lesser extent Gaza in the past, and it hasn't worked. If you don't control the ground, you cannot effectively counter these groups. And if you give them breathing room and plenty of propaganda material, you'll never get rid of them and they'll eventually come up with a reply of their own.

I care very little about isolation. If Turkey, America, Russia and China are not yet isolated after killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in just a few years, I'm sure Israel will be fine.

Lebanon and Gaza wars were the most humane operations in the history of warfare. You should have a huge bias against Israel not to see it (just compare to second Fallujah battle for instance).

Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.

Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.

Yet our soldiers died in this operation, and in Lebanon. This should stop, we should use air force and artillery, that's the best defense and the best retaliation. Just as they do not check their tactics we should not choose as well. Its not a game.

[MB.]

Right, and Sir Douglas Haig did everything in his power to prevent the Battle of the Somme.

[Smilin' Dave]

I care very little about isolation. If Turkey, America, Russia and China are not yet isolated after killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians in just a few years, I'm sure Israel will be fine.

You don't care about isolation... how would your economy feel about it? How many Israeli students are overseas, how many students visit Israel for cultural purposes. I don't think you realise what isolation could really look like. I'm not talking about the current situation where people facepalm and then do business with you anyway, I mean isolation on the North Korean scale. North Korea also as a position defended by its massive advantage in artillery and a readiness to kill anyone that gets in its way... their economy is also in the toilet, and even their allies find them 'difficult'.

Israel fights an enemy that is much more media savvy than the victims of any of the states you just named. MB also emphasises that Israel probably can't afford to lose the support on internal players either.

Lebanon and Gaza wars were the most humane operations in the history of warfare. You should have a huge bias against Israel not to see it (just compare to second Fallujah battle for instance).

I said nothing about the operations being humane/inhumane, your goofy revenge fantasy policy is simply impractical. Here is an example of an Israeli 'offensive' conducted largely by air power and artillery in Lebanon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grapes_of_Wrath
This was really humane by the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling
Did Grapes of Wrath actually do anything to Hezbollah long term? No. Qana was passed off as an aberation, so people didn't mind that all those people died due to 'indiscriminate targetting'. See where it gets you when it's a regular occurance.

This is the 'lesser extent' in Gaza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Lead
An offensive conducted to a greater degree any any time in the past where air and artillery assets lead the way. Was Hamas put offline by this? No.

Clearly with my time machine I fabricated these campaigns to perpetuate my huge bias... or you simply haven't got a clue what you're talking about, and thought you could just ascribe anything to the contrary of your ill-informed opinion as bias.

Yet our soldiers died in this operation, and in Lebanon.

If you want soldiers and wars, you have to accept that people on both sides will die. The other side gets closer to victory when you can't take even a fraction of what they receive.

This should stop, we should use air force and artillery, that's the best defense and the best retaliation.

It's not a defence, it doesn't actually stop anything. It will disrupt and perhaps even pre-empt, but it is not a shield.

It is not the best retaliation.
- It is inaccurate. You'll probably not hit what you aim for, because you have no one on the ground to collect information or designate targets.
- It won't disrupt Hezbollah/Hamas' political side, in fact it will just make them stronger. It's a propaganda coup for them, and if they are the only fighting chance in town, who do you think people will more consistently side with?
- As already noted, carry on like this for too long an you'll lose international support. I think eventually the US will tire of supplying munitions to your military when all those bombs are falling indiscriminately on civillians. Because, get this: The US doesn't want to be made to look bad on a regular basis while doing nothing!
- On a tactical note: these strikes are particularly ineffective at dealing with tunnels ('coz they are deep underground) and concealed emplacements (because apparently your military couldn't find Hezbollah's bunker network and thus didn't know to bomb it properly first...).

Just as they do not check their tactics we should not choose as well. Its not a game.

So you are cool with suicide bombing and rocket attacks in return? It's pretty indiscriminate and brutal. I note you're casualty adverse so maybe you think getting hit back is unfair. Unfortunately when you do stuff to the enemy, it changes the strategic and political balance. The opposing forces will sit down and have a goofy revenge fantasy/policy just like yours.

I know what you're really thinking: I'll just kill them until they change their mind (clearly if it hasn't worked yet, you simply haven't used enough force, right?)... or you can wipe them out. Fortunately I believe there is a special irony detector sitting in the Knesset in the event people start talking like this too often.

[Typhoon]

It may be all fabricated, or just partially (i.e, not a Kornet, did not penetrate...). I believe this is mostly a publicity stunt to raise awareness and get, well, more money.

Thats an interesting angle to the story WA, it would indeed be nice to see some debris for confirmation.

The Trophy system is operational. It has been installed on Israeli tanks since 2009.

Sure but to roll it out accross the entire fleet will take time and money, accross every armoured vehicle in the fleet probably prohibitively expensive.

[eugenekop]

Israel fights an enemy that is much more media savvy than the victims of any of the states you just named.

Russians have killed 200,000 Chechnyans, Americans 100,000 Iraqis and Afghans, Turks have killed 40,000 Kurdish, African warlords are killing by the thousands daily. As you see Israel that in its entire history killed less Arabs than the Russians killed in a few years, is definitely not the world's biggest problem. As long as people see this simple truth we won't be isolated more than the Chinese, Russians, Turks, Americans, Sudanese, Yemenis, Egyptians and all the other nations that are found in conflicts in different places in the world.

your goofy revenge fantasy policy is simply impractical.

I don't care about revenge, I am not an emotional person. I care for practical results, and retaliation and proper deterrence achieve these results. We cannot live in some defensive high-tech bubble, the reality is much simpler. They fire rocket you, you return fire to that location with your artillery. Then you send your air force to hunt the terrorists down no matter in which hospitals or schools or mosques they are trying to hide. That's the only reasonable way to fight. What is unreasonable is to endanger your troops when you have technological capabilities to avoid that.

I know what you're really thinking: I'll just kill them until they change their mind (clearly if it hasn't worked yet, you simply haven't used enough force, right?).

They don't have to change their mind, I don't care what they think. But when they fire at you, you fire back, you don't send in defenseless troops.

[Ombrageux]

Russians have killed 200,000 Chechnyans, Americans 100,000 Iraqis and Afghans, Turks have killed 40,000 Kurdish, African warlords are killing by the thousands daily. As you see Israel that in its entire history killed less Arabs than the Russians killed in a few years, is definitely not the world's biggest problem. As long as people see this simple truth we won't be isolated more than the Chinese, Russians, Turks, Americans, Sudanese, Yemenis, Egyptians and all the other nations that are found in conflicts in different places in the world.

It isn't a matter of the Israelis being better or worse. It is a matter of
1) The Israeli oppression is actively subsidized by the United States of America.
2) The Israeli oppression involves Statelessness and oppression of non-citizens, Chechens and Tibetans may also be oppressed, but at least they are citizens.
3) The Israeli oppression could be ended relatively easily, and could have been, over the last 40 years, if the West (and the U.S. in particular) had wanted to end it. A tragedy is not an injustice if it is inevitable.
4) The crimes of any number of other regimes does not excuse Israel's (or anyone else's, for that matter).

[War Angel]

One Merkava IV destroyed, another two apparently hit well enough to inflict casualties on the crew. Seems capable enough to me?

Subsequent hits are enough to destroy anything. Hit it with a spoon enough times, too, and will break.

The Kornet-E is a very capable AT missile, even still. But, if you look at the hit\casualty ratio, it's not so bad. Most tanks were hit, and hit hard, and still kept on going, with no fatalities.

[Smilin' Dave]

Hit it with a spoon enough times, too, and will break.

The true threat of the freedom flotilla emerges! Cutlery!

With the frivolity over, back to bashing eugene:

Russians have killed 200,000 Chechnyans, Americans 100,000 Iraqis and Afghans, Turks have killed 40,000 Kurdish, African warlords are killing by the thousands daily. As you see Israel that in its entire history killed less Arabs than the Russians killed in a few years, is definitely not the world's biggest problem. As long as people see this simple truth we won't be isolated more than the Chinese, Russians, Turks, Americans, Sudanese, Yemenis, Egyptians and all the other nations that are found in conflicts in different places in the world.

You didn't respond to the text you quoted. Your ramblings on quantity is nearly irrelevant. As I noted, the Palestinians have proven to be more media savvy than the unlike the Chechens, Iraqis, Tibetans, Uighurs etc. They appeal well to an international audience and get their message out. One reason they are able to do this, and it's something you overlooked in your kill counter, is the Palestinian refugee population. Congratulations, your military-heavy solutions to problems created a diaspora which upset and destabilise your neighbours and make it far easier for the Palestinian message to get out.

I don't care about revenge, I am not an emotional person.

Yet you harp on the deaths of soldiers without considering the utility of their actions. Even their deaths are part of a delicate balance. If the opposition think you are afraid to be hurt, they will use any opportunity to hurt you. And if you really are afraid to be hurt, it will probably work. Seperating Israel from its problems will simply encourage people to ignore its problems while they fester. Encourage them to grow lax.

Further for someone supposedly so logical, you have completely failed to consider the other side of the equation.

I care for practical results, and retaliation and proper deterrence achieve these results.

I've shown you with factual examples that this approach does not achieve effective results long term. In all these decades of retaliation, the Palestianians and other local militants haven't been deterred at all. In fact, they just get more militant with each iteration. The PLO in Lebanon were a problem... now you have Hezbollah. Black September were a threat... now you have Hamas.

They fire rocket you, you return fire to that location with your artillery.

This has been done for years, the rockets keep coming. Honestly, have you been asleep, Rip Van Winkle-like, for all this time and are completely unaware of what is going on?

Then you send your air force to hunt the terrorists down no matter in which hospitals or schools or mosques they are trying to hide.

Airpower can only form part of a successful pursuit/recon. After all, Israeli aircraft totally failed to detect Hezbollah's defensive preparations. Maybe with more human intelligence on the ground, Israel would have gotten wind that Hezbollah were planning an ambush prior to the 2006 war breaking out, and nipped the whole thing in the bud? But no, Israelis could get hurt .

What is unreasonable is to endanger your troops when you have technological capabilities to avoid that.

Okay, let me re-iterate: what technological capability exists to detect and effectively destroy Hamas' tunnel network that reaches into Egypt, at long range?

you don't send in defenseless troops.

I see, maybe I misunderstood something about the Israeli military and this is causing a misunderstanding. War Angel maybe you can clarify for me. Did they send you in un-armed or something?

Now this time eugenekop, I want you to really read my posts and actually reply to what I've just said. Don't talk past me, I won't let you. Don't bullshit me, I'm clearly not as stupid as you assume.