[Drlee]

I said: I am a conservative Chrisian. I oppose the death penalty. I support raising taxes on the wealthy. I have no dog in the fight over same sex marriage so whatever they want is none of my business. I believe generally in small government but I know that we need the FDA and the EPA. There are many things the government does better than private industry.

John Bob said: Sorry, is is difficult to believe your post is written by a conservative.

Looking at your sig I can see why you would believe this. Perhaps you have letting Fox News define conservatism for you? I believe that is a mistake. So which of my opinions are inconsistent with a conservative philosophy?

Suppose I said that the government role in PBS was, in my opinion, appropriate and represented a good investment of government money? It is, after all, only 250 million a year. Suppose I said that having our children exposed to the classics on PBS as I was as a child was important. Does that make me a liberal?

I said I supported the EPA and the FDA. These are two examples of agencies which regulate tasks at which private industry has an abysmal record. Do you really want foreign drug companies to decide what is safe for you to use and rely solely on the courts to force them not to put profit over safety? Believing that industry can and will put safety over profits does not make you a conservative it makes you an idiot. I remember when my eyes would start burning 60 miles from LA. The auto companies fought tooth and nail to prevent the government from legislating clean air. Not many Angelinos don't even remember how deadly the smog was. I remember love canal and rivers so dirty that you were even unsafe on boats on those rivers. Now thanks to the EPA we are not dumping PCBs into the great lakes and then eating the fish. These are roles only government can fill. Does wanting Monsanto not to dump poison in my backyard make me a liberal?

I oppose the death penalty. I oppose it because it does not work. Convicted murderers remain on death row for decades as the appeals process runs its course. And, I don't want the appeals process eliminated. Just today a man was released from death row and two others released from life in prison because on appeal it was determined they did not do it. The death penaly is unworkable in our system and all of the studies show it does not deter crime. It is very expensive and in the end it would be FAR cheaper to keep someone in prison for life as opposed to putting them to death. Does the fact that I oppose this idiotic law make me a liberal?

The OP asked if Christianity is the "foundation of true conservatism". I said no. I cited famous conservatives who agreed with me. I favor raising taxes on the wealthy because we need to pay our debts. Is it not conservative to want to pay our debts and balance the budget? I am not one of the idiots in the congress who deceive the people into believing we can cut spending enough to pay off the national debt. I am also pragmatic enough to know that we can't eliminate entitlement programs without putting our whole governmental system in danger of revolution. Does wanting to preserve our way of life make me a liberal?

I want small government. I would dramatically reduce the size of the Drug Enforcement Administration while decriminalizing many drugs. The war on drugs is an abject failure. I would reduce the size of the border patrol and turn them to workplace enforcement. This way we can virtually eliminate illegal immigration by removing the jobs. I favor a national ID card for the purpose. I would invest in rebuilding our science, technology industrial leadership in the world. You know. Just like those arch liberals Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon did. That might take the expenditure of tax money. Money we will get from whoever has it. You children of the Bush tax cuts think we are over taxed. I remember prosperity like you have never seen and wile we had tax rates well over 50% for the highest income brackets.

I am sickened by modern conservatives who are little more than uneducated, grasping corporatists. They have given up on America and act like we can't be a great country again. They are easily fooled by the corporate stooges at Fox News. What you SHOULD be surprised about is that any thinking conservative would give a rats-ass what the idiots in your sig think.

Tell you what. Stop watching Fox news and start taking night classes in government. You will be far better off. And probably would soon understand that conservatism has been around a bunch longer than former Bush speechwrited Ann Coulter and college dropouts Limbaugh and Hannity.

[Old Brit]

It is completely possible to be Conservative without being a Christian, a higher prorportion of Conservatives are Christians because most Conservatives have a value system they wish to preserve. Christianity has a very clear and rigorous value system and, being in decline, often embodies the values that Conservatives wish to protect.

[Suska]

I applaud Drlee's thoughtful posts here, and second TCR's reference to The Power of Nightmares. Conservatism has been buried by Neocon lies.

[dgun]

Only idiots can believe that true Christians can stay away from Politic.

You totally missed my point about putting faith in God versus faith in men. Makes me wonder if John Bob is actually a true Christian.

No, we will not that the Holy Bible will be replaced by Quran and Marxism.

The Quran and Marxism, huh? Two bad things instead of just the one? Why not throw in "Nazis" or "Hitler" and go for a triple?

All true Christians should go to elections and vote for Conservatives

Hmm, I want you to address this point:

If "true" Christians are some small subset of those who profess to be Christians, then maybe you are seeking divine intervention after all as that small number of individuals would not have nearly enough voting power to overcome all the heathens and phony Christians.

Maybe those few "true" Christians should spend their days worried about more important things than worldly issues like politics. Maybe they should instead concern themselves with fulfilling the great commission and the great commandment.

No, you just want to invoke God to claim righteousness and use that as some perverted excuse to vote for assholes that are far from "true" Christians. But whatever. That's nothing new. Those of your ilk have been doing so for some time now.

[Nukenfry]

Gotta be a troll....Just gotta....

[Headache]

^^ Most definitely. I have enjoyed reading the Doctor's posts though. So at least one good thing has come of this thread.

[pojut]

Hi folk,

if somebody claims to be Conservative but themselves confesses to be an Atheist I can only difficult to believe he / she is a genuine Conservative. IMO only a true Christian can be a true Con, otherwise he / she tends to be a fluffy-bunny politically correct funny fuzzy "Conservative", a friend of liberals, CNN and RINOs. Why the Tea Party has a such grandiose success? The answer is clear, because it is firstly a Christian, not a political movement. Therefore the Holy Bible should be the Guide N 1 for every true Conservative and we all should go back to our Christian roots.

I would agree with you, were it not for the fact that the vast majority of "Christian Conservatives" nowadays no longer represent Christian values. One need only to see the vitriolic comments on Fox News' website to see this in action. (I consider Fox News to be a solid representation of the "average" conservative, considering how many viewers they have and how rarely conservatives ignore what Fox News has to say.)

In addition, conservatism calls for government being as unobtrusive as possible, while modern conservatives call for laws at the federal level which do exactly the opposite (gay marriage, drug laws, etc.) Mixing religion with political philosophy is a dangerous game in a country as diverse as the US, since utilizing religious beliefs as a base for legislature will inevitably lead to encroaching on the beliefs of those not represented by that particular religion.

Or, as has been said many times before: "Separation of Church and State isn't intended only to protect the Church from the State...it's also intended to protect the State from the Church."

[Drlee]

It occurs to me that the term "Christian Conservative" is itself a creation used 'pad the books' so to speak. Although there are about 25% of Americans who classify themselves as evangelicals and are therefor (if white) probably truly conservative, I wonder how many of those in polls, thinking that if they are conservative and Christian, that they fit the description that is most often associated with Christian Conservatives. For example. I saw a poll saying that over 55% of Catholic Americans were pro-choice. My guess is that even these pro-choice Catholics would self identify and Christian Conservative. Certainly abortion seems to be one of the litmus tests of conservatism yet here is a case where making the statement "Christian conservatives oppose a woman's right to choose" would lead one to believe that there is far more opposition to choice than there really is.

In another thread Suska made a very careful argument expressing his position on gay marrage. It was one that took a very traditional position on the institution of marriage as a religious rite. I would call his position on the issue Christian Conservative. On this issue we disagreed. I made my own clumsy effort to argue an opposing opinion. Yet I would classify both of us as Christian Conservatives. And I think that Suska would agree that neither of us held the position that most people would think of when they think of the Christian Conservative position on the subject. My thought is that if Suska and I were to attend the same conservative republican political rally that neither of us would hear our position coming from any of the speakers.

And therein lies the tale. The OP posits that the Bible is the foundation for true conservatism. I think this can't be true because we can't even clearly establish what the Christian position on the issues.....is.

[Genghis Khan]

if somebody claims to be Conservative but themselves confesses to be an Atheist I can only difficult to believe he / she is a genuine Conservative.

Accepting Jesus as your savior = Favoring supply side economics?

[Sceptic]

Accepting Jesus as your savior = Favoring supply side economics?

Most agree with this reductio ad absurdum via demonstrably false non sequitur. (Note that the OP has not came back to respond to any of these views, probably because his stance his shaped by the Fox News definition of Conservatism - as has been suggested multiple times). I myself favour moderate supply side economics and other (liberal) conservative political stances but would not call myself a Christian (more of a weak atheist with scepticism about transcendent epistemological claims).

[Naxzul]

True conservatives were based on Enlightenment ideas, they don't exist anymore as Prof. Chomsky shows..

The political policies that are called conservative these days would appall any genuine conservative, if there were one around to be appalled. For example, the central policy of the Reagan Administration - which was supposed to be conservative - was to build up a powerful state. The state grew in power more under Reagan than in any peacetime period, even if you just measure it by state expenditures. The state intervention in the economy vastly increased. That's what the Pentagon system is, in fact; it's the creation of a state-guaranteed market and subsidy system for high-technology production. There was a commitment under the Reagan Administration to protect this more powerful state from the public, which is regarded as the domestic enemy. Take the resort to clandestine operations in foreign policy: that means the creation of a powerful central state immune from public inspection. Or take the increased efforts at censorship and other forms of control. All of these are called "conservatism," but they're the very opposite of conservatism. Whatever the term means, it involves a concern for Enlightenment values of individual rights and freedoms against powerful external authorities such as the state, a dominant Church, and so on. That kind of conservatism no one even remembers anymore.
Interview by Adam Jones, February 20, 1990 [14]
There are no conservatives in the United States. The United States does not have a conservative tradition. The people who call themselves conservatives, like the Heritage Foundation or Gingrich, are believers in -- are radical statists. They believe in a powerful state, but a welfare state for the rich.
Interview by Ira Shorr, February 11, 1996 [15]
If there was anyone who actually fit the category of conservative, if there was such a category of people, they would have a very easy way to deal with the fact that 60% of the children under 2 [in Nicaragua] are suffering probable brain damage. Namely, by paying their debts. Simple conservative principle. But that's beyond unthinkable. Compassionate conservatives might want to go beyond that, if they existed. But they're much more interested in making political capital over the fact that a woman in a vegetative state shouldn't be allowed to die in dignity.
Talk at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, March 22, 2005 [16]
It is not that I am not a fan of American exceptionalism. That is like saying I am not a fan of the moon being made out of green cheese—it does not exist. Powerful states have quite typically considered themselves to be exceptionally magnificent, and the United States is no exception to that. The basis for it ["it" meaning American exceptionalism] is not very substantial to put it politely. The problems with American foreign policy are rooted in its central nature, which we know about or can know about if we want to.
Interview with The Young Turks on October 26, 2010 [17]

[Suska]

Very timely in my life, that is. I was looking for a clear perspective on what Conservatism actually was. I suppose we confused them with Neo-Cons.

[USB]

Money, the root of all evil, is the Foundation of True Conservatism. Let's face it. The fact that they abuse the biblical verse that tells them that "He will teach you 'profitable' acts', they are not pleasing in the eyes of God. They commit irregularities in Securities and Exchange Commission by fixing the stocks. They hoard. They impose unlawful interest..etc. Well, God forbids them in the Bible.."Do not swindle your neighbour"!

[jimjam]

It has been my experience that many religious based conservatives (as opposed to fiscal based conservatives) require a high degree of conformity, are very intolerant and judgemental and have difficulty not butting and nosing into other people's lives. I am unconcerned with their judgements. God will be my judge. They seem to require a high degree of validation from their associates of their beleifs. I have a good number of friends and associates who are serious fundamentalist Christians and sooner or later i hear something like:" And how do YOU stand with Jesus as your personal savior?" My stock response is to quote Thomas Jefferson: A man's religion is a personal matter between he and his God. I tell my wife that i am a religion of one and i am accepting no new converts.

Basically i don't like people butting into my life and telling me how to live.

[Godstud]

Conservatives and Liberals can be Christian. It's only your extremely narrow/biased view of Christianity that perceives it as not possible, John Bob.

I would agree with you, were it not for the fact that the vast majority of "Christian Conservatives" nowadays no longer represent Christian values.

BINGO

Incidentally, I that that Jesus would be a social democrat if he were alive today, and he'd likely not support the Liberals, nor Conservatives.

[hip hop bunny hop]

Incidentally, I that that Jesus would be a social democrat if he were alive today, and he'd likely not support the Liberals, nor Conservatives.

Right, a man who was crucified by a corrupt Government would favor handing over more control to Governments. That's some brilliant analysis, indeed.

[Drlee]

Right, a man who was crucified by a corrupt Government would favor handing over more control to Governments. That's some brilliant analysis, indeed.

Yes. That IS some brilliant analysis. I suggest you read the Bible before you go off about something in which, it would appear, you have no depth of knowledge at all.

[Godstud]

I suggest you read the Bible before you go off about something in which, it would appear, you have no depth of knowledge at all I suggest you shove that sanctimonious clap trap somewhere dark and nasty. I HAVE read the Bible, and Jesus was not anti-government. He was against government that wouldn't take care of the people. Jesus was against the rich and for taking care of the poor, sick, etc. He'd have really supported a social safety net. Perhaps you guys should try re-reading the Bible.

Romans 13:1-7: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

That doesn't sound very anti-government to me...

James 2:1-7:
1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

Pretty anti-capitalist too(anti-Conservative). In fact, anything to do with socialism usually tends to be blamed on Liberals. Jesus was pretty much a socialist.

[Drlee]

GODSTUD!

I am on your side!. Look at my post! I said "it IS brilliant" speaking of your post in response to hip-hops criticism of you.

I completely agree with both of your posts. My comments about not reading the Bible were directed at hip-hop.......who, you must agree, would benefit from the effort.

I have said, to various dip-shit libertarians that God does not want you to be rich; he does not want anyone to be poor.

[Suska]

That's as silly an interpretation as the opposite Doc.

"Every way of man is right in his own eyes
but the Lord pondereth hearts" Proverbs 21:2

It isn't about money, it isn't even about poverty.