[ninurta]

DDM, every feminist I ever met was a conservative so far. I am not saying all are conservative, I am just saying, no, you are totally wrong. There are conservative AND liberal feminists

[Cartertonian]

The only reason we get Conservatives elected in Britain is because women usually swing the vote by voting conservative. So do not even start with me.

Bloody women!

[DanDaMan]

Rei, is American conservatism the same as British conservatism?
If so please define what we agree on and may differ on?

[Rei Murasame]

Can't you tell by now what we differ on?

[DanDaMan]

You have less than 50 posts.
I want clarity and to know your definition of conservative is the same as mine.

(which of course is not the same in our countries)

[Rei Murasame]

Disraeli has the best quotes for this, so this'll give you an idea of how we operate, in the interest of saving time:

"I am a Conservative to preserve all that is good in our constitution, a Radical to remove all that is bad. I seek to preserve property and to respect order, and I equally decry the appeal to the passions of the many or the prejudices of the few." - Benjamin Disraeli

"It has been said that the people of this country are deeply interested in the humanitarian and philanthropic considerations involved in [the Eastern Question]. All must appreciate such feelings. But I am mistaken if there be not a yet deeper sentiment on the part of the people of this country, one with which I cannot doubt your lordships will ever sympathise, and that is—the determination to maintain the Empire of England." - Benjamin Disraeli

"Man is not the creature of circumstances, circumstances are the creature of man. We are free agents, and man is more powerful than matter." - Benjamin Disraeli

"Change is inevitable in a progressive society. Change is constant." - Benjamin Disraeli

And just for fun, I'd add:

"Well behaved women seldom make history." - Margaret Thatcher

"It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity." - Benito Mussolini

"The function of a citizen and a soldier are inseparable." - Benito Mussolini

"Let our children grow tall and some taller than others if they have it in them to do so." - Margaret Thatcher

"Let me give you my vision: A man's right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant and not as master. These are the British inheritance. They are the essence of a free country, and on that freedom all of our other freedoms depend." - Margaret Thatcher

"Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail." - Benito Mussolini

"And what a prize we have to fight for: no less than the chance to banish from our land the dark divisive clouds of Marxist socialism." - Margaret Thatcher

[DanDaMan]

"Change is inevitable in a progressive society. Change is constant." - Benjamin Disraeli


"I am a Conservative to preserve all that is good in our constitution, a Radical to remove all that is bad. I seek to preserve property and to respect order, and I equally decry the appeal to the passions of the many or the prejudices of the few." - Benjamin Disraeli

You are a Progressive in my country and not a Conservative.

[Rei Murasame]

British Imperialists are Progressive with a capital 'P' now?

What are you smoking?

[ninurta]

Rei, is American conservatism the same as British conservatism?
If so please define what we agree on and may differ on?

Obviously the british kind is far more competant than the american neocon.

[DanDaMan]

British Imperialists are Progressive with a capital 'P' now?

You fail to understand the history of progressives.
They are the parents of fascism.
Mussolini adopted American progressive ideas.
Then Hitler followed it.

[PBVBROOK]

Mussolini adopted American progressive ideas.
Then Hitler followed it.

Honestly DDM. You must be having a lot of fun.

[DanDaMan]

Progressivism is Closet Fascism - Hogeye Bill
http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/r ... scism.html

US fascism flag Conventionally, progressivism is thought of as a left-wing ideology, and fascism a right-wing ideology. But this is more a problem of the simplistic left-right political model than a valid insight. When we look at actual policies or ideology, progressivism and fascism start looking like kissing cousins, if not identical.

What is progressivism? It is an ideology that favors the use of government action - the police power of the State - to promote social values. What these values are have varied with time. In the mid-1800s the thrust was primarily the abolition of slavery and alcohol prohibition. After the emancipation of slaves, temperance was still a major progressive goal, but also ending prostitution, assimilating "papists," passing blue laws, and elite control of education became the major moral concerns that (allegedly) had to be cured through government force.

There were also economic issues relating to industrialization and mass immigration, and the problems resulting from government subsidization of railroads, i.e. the lack of competition out west. Progressives of this era sought to regulate what immigrant children had to learn (good old pietist Protestantism) and how railroads (and later other industries) were permitted to operate.

Progressives were duped into thinking that "trust-busting" regulations were enacted to benefit the workers and the poor. As leftist historian Gabriel Kolko showed in "Railroads and Regulation: 1877-1916," this was not the case at all. The big existing railroad corporations supported the anti-trust regulations whole-heartedly. Why? Because their attempts to fix prices by forming a cartel failed in the (relatively) free market. Price-fixing cartels tend to be short-lived and unsuccessful because there is always a temptation for members to cheat. When someone has extra goods to sell due to artificially high prices, it is only rational to secretly sell them off at a lower price to clear the shelves. This works with everything, from railroad transport capacity, to oil, to Barbie Dolls.

But the big railroad corporations had a way to solve this problem of defection from their cartel - get the government to punish defectors. A cartel had a much better chance to maintain long-term price-fixing if defectors could be fined, imprisoned, and put out of business. And there was a bonus for using government-enforced cartelization. Regulations could be enacted that discriminated against smaller railroads without government pull, and barriers could be created to prevent new competition from startups. All for the public good, of course, to prevent "cut-throat competition" - a nasty sounding term for low prices. So the upshot was that big corporations screwed the working man by government-enforced price fixing, all the while advertising the scheme as "good for the working man." And the progressives bought it, hook, line, and sinker.

Once the railroad corporations pulled this off, corporations in other industries did the same. By the end of 1913, the railroad and shipping industry had the ICC cartel, the industrial farmers had the Agriculture Department cartel, and the banking industry had the Federal Reserve Board. We know how well these worked out for "the little guy." Today we have exaggerated boom-bust cycles due to the Fed banking cartel, and ultra-expensive medical services due to the AMA-run medical cartel.

What is fascism? Aristotle A. Kallis in "The Fascism Reader" wrote, "The most important claim made by fascism was that it alone could offer the creative prospect of a 'third way' between capitalism and socialism. Hitler, in Mein Kampf, spoke enthusiastically about the 'National Socialist corporative idea' as one which would eventually 'take the place of ruinous class warfare'; whilst Mussolini, in typically extravagant fashion, declared that 'the Corporative System is destined to become the civilization of the twentieth century.'" Corporatism is one of the defining characteristics of fascism. Corporatism is defined as a partnership between government and established firms characterized by regulatory government agencies that cartelize industries.

So now we see that the economic plan for both fascism and progressivism is corporatism. The only difference is the face it puts on for the public. Whereas progressivism puts on a populist pro-worker face, fascism puts on a patriotic nationalist face. Both require big powerful government and heavy-handed rulers. Both follow "fuhrerprinzip" - the leader principle. The US has its executive that can start wars at his whim, with his energy czars, food and drug czars, and financial regulatory czars with their respective fiefdoms.

People whose minds are shoehorned into the braindead left-right model tend to call the current US system "capitalist" (if they are lefties) or "socialist" (if they are righties) without ever having an inkling of the truth. We have a fascist system - a mixed economy to be sure, but essentially a "closet" fascist system called progressivism.

[Lightman]

Brook, in a very tentative historical sense, there is some vague truth to what Dandaman alleged, in the sense that there was a small degree of sympathy between one of the various progressive movement's and Italian fascism during those two movement's nascent years. However, none of that proves what certain conservative characters want it to prove, as the various historical progressive movements (four in total) are different movements with different origins and inconsistent ideological leanings.

[Rei Murasame]

DanDaMan, you have not competently demonstrated that Benjamin Disraeli was Progressive, nor have you competently demonstrated that Tories were/are fascist, so your point is moot before it even gets off the ground.

We have a fascist system - a mixed economy to be sure, but essentially a "closet" fascist system called progressivism.

Thanks for admitting that the United States is fascist though, I couldn't get you to do that in the other thread.

[Lightman]

Oh, also:

"Well behaved women seldom make history." - Margaret Thatcher

While Thatcher might have said that, that quote can't be attributed to her as such. The quote was from historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.

Thanks for admitting that the United States is fascist though, I couldn't get you to do that in the other thread.

The United States is not fascist. If you mean that the US is fascist in the epithetic sense of the word, that is sheer hypocrisy, as the United States government affords its citizens more freedoms than the British government; we have a close to absolute right to free speech, we do not have cameras on every corner, we no longer ban certain sex acts between consenting adults. If you mean in the actual historical sense (doubtful), the United States is not dominated by a nationalistic party, it is not economically corporatist, etc.

[Rei Murasame]

True, don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to apply that exact label to it myself, just it was more than a bit ironic that DanDaMan would choose that kind of article to supplement his argument.

[DanDaMan]

True, don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to apply that exact label to it myself, just it was more than a bit ironic that DanDaMan would choose that kind of article to supplement his argument.

My position was based pre-Obama. The article was written In April of '09.

We are very much corporatist and fascist in style, today. All thanks to "progressive" leaders. Bush and Obama.

[Rei Murasame]

We are very much corporatist and fascist in style, today. All thanks to "progressive" leaders. Bush and Obama.

Weren't you defending Bush from me on the Iraq question just a few days ago?

[DanDaMan]

DanDaMan wrote:
We are very much corporatist and fascist in style, today. All thanks to "progressive" leaders. Bush and Obama.

Weren't you defending Bush from me on the Iraq question just a few days ago?

Possibly. Bush made mistakes.
I don't think the war was a mistake because A) even the British said there were WMD's .
B) I think those that commit outright genocide should be removed.

[Rei Murasame]

Possibly. Bush made mistakes.

Nice of you to admit this.

I don't think the war was a mistake because

What? It's impossible that you could be saying this in 2010!

A) even the British said there were WMD's .

It was a lie! Did you miss that part? It was revealed pretty quickly to be a lie!

http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Dossier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kell ... ons_expert)

David Christopher Kelly, CMG (14 May 1944–17 July 2003) was an employee of the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence (MoD), an expert in biological warfare and a former United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq. Kelly's discussion with BBC Radio4 Today programme journalist Andrew Gilligan about the British government's dossier on weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq inadvertently caused a major political scandal. He was found dead days after appearing before the Parliamentary committee charged with investigating the scandal. Many people tried to distance themselves from his death, including the BBC and the MOD.


During the Hutton inquiry, a British ambassador called David Broucher reported a conversation with Kelly at a Geneva meeting in February 2003. Broucher related that Kelly said he had assured his Iraqi sources that there would be no war if they co-operated, and that a war would put him in an "ambiguous" moral position. Broucher had asked Kelly what would happen if Iraq were invaded, and Kelly had replied, "I will probably be found dead in the woods." Broucher then quoted from an email he had sent just after Kelly's death: "I did not think much of this at the time, taking it to be a hint that the Iraqis might try to take revenge against him, something that did not seem at all fanciful then. I now see that he may have been thinking on rather different lines."

Did the entire USA miss this scandal? The Intelligence data used to 'justify' the invasion of Iraq was actually lies that were invented by elements within the MoD and the Parliamentary Labour Party cabinet (a Leftist government, just in case you forgot what side of the aisle they hail from).

B) I think those that commit outright genocide should be removed.

Is that the "Liberal school of Zero Tolerance" that you're always haranguing people about?