[distinct]

The only interesting argument against transsexualism that I have heard is a comparison with anorexia. Medical professionals and the general public don't encourage anorexics to dramatically alter their bodies until they match their preferred mental image of themselves. Promoting sex change operations is considered equally damaging and counterproductive by some.

There are some people who want amputation, called body integrity identity disorder. Perfectly sane people electing to have limbs removed! However they're apparently happier afterward.
Desire for amputation of a limb: paraphilia, psychosis, or a new type of identity disorder
Apparently transsexuals are happier afterward too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tan ... 60626.html

With regards to prevention, assuming you're talking about no going back sex-change operations (since nobody can stop how another person self-identifies, putting aside that self-identity means essentially nothing), the result can be regret and identity confusion, which results in disorientation, feelings of emptiness, loss of self-esteem: attempted suicide rates for post-operation transgenders remain high (statistics in article, feel free to not read about the author's life story).

TheFederalist crashed my browser. Sorry conservatives, optimize your code.
Anyway you can oppose the surgery but still let them dress and act as they please. Where's the evidence that correcting their gender identity will help them?

[AFAIK]

Well, I won't chastise you for not wading through my meandering posts. But this is what I wrote on the first page:

I did read many of your posts until you and mikema started bickering but it was too late in the day for me to take it all in. I'd never heard of the SRY gene before but according to wikipedia its use in determining people's sex is controversial.

One of the most controversial uses of this discovery was as a means for gender verification at the Olympic Games, under a system implemented by the International Olympic Committee in 1992. Athletes with an SRY gene were not permitted to participate as females, although all athletes in whom this was "detected" at the 1996 Summer Olympics were ruled false positives and were not disqualified. Specifically, eight female participants (out of a total of 3387) at these games were found to have the SRY gene. However, after further investigation of their genetic conditions, all these athletes were verified as female and allowed to compete. These athletes were found to have either partial or full androgen insensitivity, despite having an SRY gene, making them phenotypically female and giving them no advantage over other female competitors.[20] In the late 1990s, a number of relevant professional societies in United States called for elimination of gender verification, including the American Medical Association, stating that the method used was uncertain and ineffective.[21] The screening was eliminated as of the 2000 Summer Olympics.[21][22][23] Since this method of testing was eliminated there has been no form of Olympic gender screening that all athletes must undergo. Rather, questions regarding an athlete's gender are now addressed on an individual basis by medical experts, only when there is significant reason to suspect a male athlete may be posing as a female. However, there have been few, if any, instances of such suspicion and evaluation since the system of screening was eliminated, due to the difficulties and impracticality of a male successfully disguising himself as a female athlete (such as the nature of women's event uniforms, which make concealment of a male's body near impossible).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis_de ... _screening

I think the stigma and hatred of pedophilia is dangerous because it deters pedos from seeking help and makes them more likely to offend if they are unable to suppress their sexuality.

In my humble opinion, this sentiment is an outgrowth of the "we just need to be who we are", "born this way", etc, line of thought, in which behaviours are considered immutable and totally unchangeable. There is no reason to think that sexual attraction to children is innate, as it is for for other dispositions (heterosexuality, homosexuality (even putting aside social influences)). There is no reason to normalise pædophilia by removing the stigma associated to it in the name of endless "openness and tolerance".

There are many pedos who are disgusted with the idea of abusing children. If they are able to access professional help and peer support groups then they can combat their desire to offend. I don't care if they fantasise about children, if I did I'd turn myself into the thought police and report my urge to beat up noisy neighbours and vandalise all the vehicles that cut me up when I'm driving.

ETA;

There are some people who want amputation, called body integrity identity disorder. Perfectly sane people electing to have limbs removed! However they're apparently happier afterward.

I guess we could refer to these people as handicapped and be factually correct rather than politically correct.

[Frollein]

There are many pedos who are disgusted with the idea of abusing children.

Really.

Back when homosexuality was socially taboo, there were also many gay people who were deeply unsettled by their deviant urges. When the gay rights movement gained traction, people weren't disgusted with their own homosexual preferences anymore, because society was now encouraged to tolerate homosexuality. While I don't care what consenting adults do to each other, I am strongly opposed to the idea of losing the taboo society puts on pedophilia. We don't want people to get the idea that they can just "accept themselves" if they are pedophile. There is already professional help available, and psychiatrists must adhere to confidentiality anyway, so anyone seeking help doesn't have to fear being outed. That's just a cheap excuse not to seek help.

If they are able to access professional help and peer support groups then they can combat their desire to offend.

That's debatable. I have read that psychiatrists say the condition is neither treatable nor controllable.

I don't care if they fantasise about children, if I did I'd turn myself into the thought police and report my urge to beat up noisy neighbours and vandalise all the vehicles that cut me up when I'm driving.

Sorry, but I don't put sexual violence against children in the same category as vandalism. While everyone experiences aggression, not everyone feels the urge to fuck children, sorry.

There are some people who want amputation, called body integrity identity disorder. Perfectly sane people electing to have limbs removed! However they're apparently happier afterward.

Yeah, there are a lot of loonies running free. Doesn't mean we have to humour their delusions.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

I think the stigma and hatred of pedophilia is dangerous because it deters pedos from seeking help and makes them more likely to offend if they are unable to suppress their sexuality.

There are many pedos who are disgusted with the idea of abusing children.

I can't stress how deeply I disagree with your reasoning. With this reasoning, we shouldn't stigmatize and dislike or personally hate or despise serial killers, serial rapists, people who torture/rape/murder, and so on. There's a reason why there is a stigma attached to child molesters, and I'm glad it exists. No offense to you on a personal level because I have never had a reason to dislike you or anything, but your comments honestly make little or no logical sense to me.

That's debatable. I have read that psychiatrists say the condition is neither treatable nor controllable.

I have seen no convincing evidence that pedophilia is currently treatable, except with extreme measures like chemical castration. There are some pedophiles who volunteer to undergo castration, and I certainly commend them. Cognitive behavioral therapy and so on just don't appear to be effective in practice. What some people don't seem to grasp is that a person whose sexual gratification hinges on having sex with children can't simply wish it away any more than expecting people whose primary sexual gratification derives from raping people will suddenly never want to rape anyone again. These people need to be disposed of, simply put, or at the very least not released from prison back into society unless they undergo procedures that will eliminate their sexual drive. In some cases, US prisons manage to put pedophiles in a legal limbo state, where they aren't actually released from prison even when they've "served their time", but in many cases they are allowed back into society, and then the prison officials act dumbfounded when they (shock!) do it again to someone else.

[AFAIK]

I can't stress how deeply I disagree with your reasoning. With this reasoning, we shouldn't stigmatize and dislike or personally hate or despise serial killers, serial rapists, people who torture/rape/murder, and so on. There's a reason why there is a stigma attached to child molesters, and I'm glad it exists. No offense to you on a personal level because I have never had a reason to dislike you or anything, but your comments honestly make little or no logical sense to me.

No offense taken. I appreciate that it is an emotive and taboo topic.

I started by making a distinction between pedophilia and child molestation. I didn't go into much detail because the mods usually delete these discussions. This article discusses the issue at length: You’re 16. You’re a Pedophile. You Don’t Want to Hurt Anyone. What Do You Do Now?

There are two categories of pedophiles- those who are exclusively attracted to children and those who are also attracted to adults. I'd argue that the non-exclusive pedophiles can suppress their attraction to children and avoid becoming sex offenders. If you disagree what do you propose we do? It's easy to argue in favour of capital punishment or life imprisonment for sex offenders but that doesn't undo the damage they have done. Shouldn't we devote some resources towards preventing the rape of children?

I don't care if they fantasise about children, if I did I'd turn myself into the thought police and report my urge to beat up noisy neighbours and vandalise all the vehicles that cut me up when I'm driving.

Sorry, but I don't put sexual violence against children in the same category as vandalism. While everyone experiences aggression, not everyone feels the urge to fuck children, sorry.

My point was that people fantasise about doing things that they have no desire or intention of doing in real life. Some people fantasies about being victims of violent crime or living through a zombie apocalypse whilst maintaining a clear distinction between fantasy and reality.

[Frollein]

It's easy to argue in favour of capital punishment or life imprisonment for sex offenders but that doesn't undo the damage they have done. Shouldn't we devote some resources towards preventing the rape of children?

When we convict murderers that also doesn't undo the damage they have done, but nobody is seriously advocating for the social acceptance of people with sadistic murderous urges. What the hell are you doing here, defending pedophiles? There simply are some social taboos that even left-liberal "let's all embrace our diversity" types leave well alone, or so I thought!

My point was that people fantasise about doing things that they have no desire or intention of doing in real life. Some people fantasies about being victims of violent crime or living through a zombie apocalypse whilst maintaining a clear distinction between fantasy and reality.

The point is that people with pathological fantasies sooner or later act on them. That is true for pedophiles as well as serial killers. They play out their favourite scenarios in their heads again and again, while the emotional arousal builds and builds until they have to act to find release. You advocate for lowering the socially imposed inhibition threshold to the point where pedophilia becomes just another "lifestyle choice"!

[AFAIK]

When we convict murderers that also doesn't undo the damage they have done, but nobody is seriously advocating for the social acceptance of people with sadistic murderous urges. What the hell are you doing here, defending pedophiles? There simply are some social taboos that even left-liberal "let's all embrace our diversity" types leave well alone, or so I thought!

Well there are attempts to identify children who display psychopathic tendencies, such as torturing pets, and attempt to enhance their empathy, by maintaining prolonged eye contact. I imagine gov'ts engage in all sorts of social engineering in an attempt to reduce crime and violence within their societies.

The point is that people with pathological fantasies sooner or later act on them. That is true for pedophiles as well as serial killers. They play out their favourite scenarios in their heads again and again, while the emotional arousal builds and builds until they have to act to find release. You advocate for lowering the socially imposed inhibition threshold to the point where pedophilia becomes just another "lifestyle choice"!

Any source for your claim that fantasy always leads to action?
I'm not arguing that pedophilia is a lifestyle choice. I'm arguing that it should be treated as a sexual disorder in order to prevent rapes. I'm perfectly happy to send child molesters, rapists and murderers to prison or death row depending on the circumstances but I still prefer prevention to cure (or post fact isolation).

[Frollein]

When we convict murderers that also doesn't undo the damage they have done, but nobody is seriously advocating for the social acceptance of people with sadistic murderous urges. What the hell are you doing here, defending pedophiles? There simply are some social taboos that even left-liberal "let's all embrace our diversity" types leave well alone, or so I thought!

Well there are attempts to identify children who display psychopathic tendencies, such as torturing pets, and attempt to enhance their empathy, by maintaining prolonged eye contact. I imagine gov'ts engage in all sorts of social engineering in an attempt to reduce crime and violence within their societies.

Sociopathy is also considered untreatable, so I don't see this attempt at "teaching" empathy as anything else than typical left-liberal romanticism.

Harris and Rice's Handbook of Psychopathy says that there is little evidence of a cure or effective treatment for psychopathy; no medications can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy might become more adept at manipulating others and more likely to commit crime.[131] Some studies suggest that punishment and behavior modification techniques may not improve the behavior of psychopaths.[131]

Although highly psychopathic individuals are likely to be highly treatment-resistant, it has been noted that the treatments most likely to be effective are those that focus on self-interest and the tangible, material value of prosocial behavior, with interventions that develop skills to obtain what a person wants out of life in prosocial rather than antisocial ways.[132][133]

So much for "empathy"... And as for pedophiles:

Pedophilia, the sexual attraction to children who have not yet reached puberty, remains a vexing challenge for clinicians and public officials. Classified as a paraphilia, an abnormal sexual behavior, researchers have found no effective treatment. Like other sexual orientations, pedophilia is unlikely to change. The goal of treatment, therefore, is to prevent someone from acting on pedophile urges — either by decreasing sexual arousal around children or increasing the ability to manage that arousal. But neither is as effective for reducing harm as preventing access to children, or providing close supervision.

The point is that people with pathological fantasies sooner or later act on them. That is true for pedophiles as well as serial killers. They play out their favourite scenarios in their heads again and again, while the emotional arousal builds and builds until they have to act to find release. You advocate for lowering the socially imposed inhibition threshold to the point where pedophilia becomes just another "lifestyle choice"!

Any source for your claim that fantasy always leads to action?

Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy
Obsessive fantasies drive serial killers to murder repeatedly

Data gathered from law enforcement investigations conclude that child molesters often collect child pornography. The term “collection” goes beyond mere viewing to systematic saving, categorizing and fantasizing about the pornographic images.

Preferential sex offenders are particularly obsessive about collecting, organizing and categorizing pornographic images. Unlike situational sex offenders, preferential sex offenders do not molest children because of situational stress or insecurity but because they are sexually attracted to and prefer children.These are the offenders who have erotic fantasies about children and collect pornographic
images that depict their sexual fantasies with them.21 Preferential sex offenders can be extremely meticulous about categorizing, labeling and organizing their child pornography collection according to age, gender, sex act and fantasy. These collections are a direct indication of the sexual fantasies the offenders have experienced or intend to experience.

I'm not arguing that pedophilia is a lifestyle choice. I'm arguing that it should be treated as a sexual disorder in order to prevent rapes. I'm perfectly happy to send child molesters, rapists and murderers to prison or death row depending on the circumstances but I still prefer prevention to cure (or post fact isolation).

The only prevention is to deny them access to children, see the Harvard article above. Since children are an unavoidable fact of society, that effectively means isolating the pedos from society, and I'm perfectly ok with that.

[mikema63]

Pedophilia is a banned topic, pedophilia apologetics doubly so.

[AFAIK]

Sociopathy is also considered untreatable, so I don't see this attempt at "teaching" empathy as anything else than typical left-liberal romanticism.

I posted about children with psychopathic tendencies that are still developing. Adults with fully formed psychopathy are much less malleable. Prevention > Cure.

Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy
Obsessive fantasies drive serial killers to murder repeatedly

So, many serial killers are also violent fantasists. This doesn't mean that everyone who indulges in violent fantasies will act on them.

The only prevention is to deny them access to children, see the Harvard article above. Since children are an unavoidable fact of society, that effectively means isolating the pedos from society, and I'm perfectly ok with that.

The brief quote you provided included this statement;

The goal of treatment, therefore, is to prevent someone from acting on pedophile urges — either by decreasing sexual arousal around children or increasing the ability to manage that arousal.

Whilst the article states this is less effective than isolation it doesn't claim that is ineffective, as you do.

How do you go about removing pedos from society? Do you have to wait for them to abuse children or gather child porn before arresting them or are you advocating that we act preemptively? How would this work in a liberal society with rule of law and presumption of innocence?

[Noob]

Perfectly sane people [N: questionable] electing to have limbs removed! However they're apparently happier afterward.

This line of thought assumes that individual happiness is the paramount thing in life. Who cares if they're "happier" afterwards? Are their parents going to be happy? Their friends (if they have any)?

Anyway you can oppose the surgery but still let them dress and act as they please. Where's the evidence that correcting their gender identity will help them?

Sure: I don't have control over other peoples' thoughts and acts. There is no evidence for that that I'm willing to go out of my way to provide: people can do as they please with regards to this. Let's not pretend however that there are no such things as the categories of male and female for the sake of some snowflakes.

Speaking of letting people dress how they please by the way, what do we think of this story? Costumes designed perhaps for trans-Jenners? Oh, and it's a unisex outfit: unforgivable and transphobic (apparently).

Caitlyn Jenner Halloween Costume Sparks Uproar



Costume companies have provoked outrage after unveiling a Caitlyn Jenner Halloween outfit.

Supporters of the transgender television star, formerly known as Bruce, have labelled the unisex ensemble "transphobic" and "disgusting".

The "Call Me Caitlyn" costume is similar to Jenner's look in June's Vanity Fair magazine cover story where she unveiled her feminine identity.


The costume is similar to Jenner's look on Vanity Fair magazine's cover

Spirit Halloween defended the outfit, which consists of a wig, white bodice, hot pants and sash printed with the words "Call Me Caitlyn".

"We create a wide range of costumes that are often based upon celebrities, public figures, heroes and superheroes," said the company's senior director of marketing, Lisa Barr.

"We feel that Caitlyn Jenner is all of the above and that she should be celebrated. The Caitlyn Jenner costume reflects just that."

Spirit Halloween said on Tuesday it had not yet debuted the outfit.

However, it is on sale through other retail websites, including Wholesale Halloween Costumes and Anytime Costumes, for $49.90 (£32) and $74.99 respectively.

Hundreds of people have signed a Change.org petition demanding the outfit be withdrawn.

"Do not turn Cailtyn Jenner into a costume," wrote Addison Vincent, creator of the petition.

"Your profit will only lead to greater transphobia and marginalization of an already at-risk community."

Jenner won a gold medal in the 1976 Olympic decathlon before finding fame all over again in reality TV show Keeping Up With The Kardashians.

Unlike in the UK, where Halloween costumes are more likely to be inspired by the supernatural, Americans celebrate the festival with a broader array of fancy dress.

As well as ghouls and goblins, people in the US wear outfits inspired by anything from superheroes to historical figures or even cereal boxes.

Don't even need to make a comment here, do I?

___

I'd never heard of the SRY gene before but according to wikipedia its use in determining people's sex is controversial.

Specifically, eight female participants (out of a total of 3387) at these games were found to have the SRY gene. However, after further investigation of their genetic conditions, all these athletes were verified as female and allowed to compete. These athletes were found to have either partial or full androgen insensitivity, despite having an SRY gene, making them phenotypically female and giving them no advantage over other female competitors.

So, testing for it has less than a 0.25% rate of failure for female athletes, an already unusual group to be sampling from. And they were verified using other methods and ultimately had no problem in being allowed to compete.

The sex organs don't begin to develop until the 14th week of pregnancy. At this point we are girls but those of us exposed to testosterone will see our clitorises grow and form penises and our ovaries will drop and form testes inside what used to be our labia. Female to male transexuals get to witness this transformation during adulthood if they take hormone treatment.

I'd just like to expound on this and address this point more seriously this time, emphasis on the bold, which is a popular misconception. The embryo isn't "naturally feminine", but neutral. The recently discovered (1994) DSS gene induces feminisation of the embryo, and this gene is absent in males. Conversely as I've already said, the SRY gene induces masculinisation of the embryo, and is absent in females. The discovery of this latter gene in 1990 reinforced the idea that people were "naturally feminine", but this view has been flipped upside-down with the discovery of the DSS gene. Again, that there are outliers does not suggest that the rule itself is non-existent or that the exception should be considered the rule.

There are many pedos who are disgusted with the idea of abusing children.

As I, Frollein and Bulaba have said, there is no reason to remove the stigma associated to pædophilia, or to consider it on par with heterosexuality or homosexuality. The stigma exists for a reason: to deter. Whether this disposition is natural or can be changed 'naturally' or not is ultimately irrelevant: virtually everybody agrees that it is disgusting, 'sinful' in the proper sense of that word and should be stomped out at the first opportunity. The sort of argument that you're employing seems more than anything else to rest on the assumption that all stigmas are necessarily bad and everybody should be free from said stigmas: which is a utopian suggestion, since all societies have norms and standards to enforce.

I know that some social liberals like to use this sort of meme as a gibe against everybody who doesn't feel the need to go along with their post-modern nonsense, who they assimilate to 'social conservatives', but if you consider the context of this line of conversation, it looks ridiculous to say the least.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

the caitlin jenner costume is a rip off, where's the scary mask?

[Frollein]

Pedophilia is a banned topic, pedophilia apologetics doubly so.

Thank God (figure of speech, I'm atheist).

Moving back on topic: "Why should I accept transgender?"

Because of its symbolism of the struggle against oppression from the Romans, of course!

[youtube]sFBOQzSk14c[/youtube]

[AFAIK]

It appears that I am the only person here who makes a distinction between pedophilia and child molestation.

So, testing for it has less than a 0.25% rate of failure for female athletes, an already unusual group to be sampling from. And they were verified using other methods and ultimately had no problem in being allowed to compete.

A false positive rate of 1 in 400 sounds high to me.

It's interesting to hear that our understanding of fetal development has changed again. What's the current position on hermaphrodism?

[Frollein]

It appears that I am the only person here who makes a distinction between pedophilia and child molestation.

One wonders why.

[Drlee]

This thread has become icky.

[AFAIK]

This may be of interest;

The discovery of a small community in the Dominican Republic, where some males are born looking like girls and only grow penises at puberty, has led to the development of a blockbuster drug that has helped millions of people, writes Michael Mosley.

Johnny lives in a small town in the Dominican Republic where he, and others like him, are known as "Guevedoces", which effectively translates as "penis at twelve".

We came across Johnny when we were filming for a new BBC Two series Countdown to Life, which looks at how we develop in the womb and how those changes, normal and abnormal, impact us later in life.

Like the other Guevedoces, Johnny was brought up as a girl because he had no visible testes or penis and what appeared to be a vagina. It is only when he approached puberty that his penis grew and testicles descended.

Johnny, once known as Felicita, remembers going to school in a little red dress, though he says he was never happy doing girl things.

"I never liked to dress as a girl and when they bought me toys for girls I never bothered playing with them - when I saw a group of boys I would stop to play ball with them."

When he became obviously male he was taunted at school, and responded with his fists.

"They used to say I was a devil, nasty things, bad words and I had no choice but to fight them because they were crossing the line."

We also filmed with Carla, who at the age of seven is on the brink of changing into Carlos. His mother has seen the change coming for quite a while.

"When she turned five I noticed that whenever she saw one of her male friends she wanted to fight with him. Her muscles and chest began growing. You could see she was going to be a boy. I love her however she is. Girl or boy, it makes no difference."

So why does it happen? Well, one of the first people to study this unusual condition was Dr Julianne Imperato-McGinley, from Cornell Medical College in New York. In the 1970s she made her way to this remote part of the Dominican Republic, drawn by extraordinary reports of girls turning into boys.

When she got there she found the rumours were true. She did lots of studies on the Guevedoces (including what must have been rather painful biopsies of their testicles) before finally unravelling the mystery of what was going on.

When you are conceived you normally have a pair of X chromosomes if you are to become a girl and a set of XY chromosomes if you are destined to be male.

For the first weeks of life in womb you are neither, though in both sexes nipples start to grow.

Then, around eight weeks after conception, the sex hormones kick in. If you're genetically male the Y chromosome instructs your gonads to become testicles and sends testosterone to a structure called the tubercle, where it is converted into a more potent hormone called dihydro-testosterone This in turn transforms the tubercle into a penis. If you're female and you don't make dihydro-testosterone then your tubercle becomes a clitoris.

When Imperato-McGinley investigated the Guevedoces she discovered the reason they don't have male genitalia when they are born is because they are deficient in an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase, which normally converts testosterone into dihydro-testosterone.

This deficiency seems to be a genetic condition, quite common in this part of the Dominican Republic, but vanishingly rare elsewhere. So the boys, despite having an XY chromosome, appear female when they are born. At puberty, like other boys, they get a second surge of testosterone. This time the body does respond and they sprout muscles, testes and a penis.

Imperato-McGinley's thorough medical investigations showed that in most cases their new, male equipment seems to work fine and that most Guevedoces live out their lives as men, though some go through an operation and remain female.

Another thing that Imperato-McGinley discovered, which would have profound implications for many men around the world, was that the Guevedoces tend to have small prostates.

This observation, made in 1974, was picked up by Roy Vagelos, head of research at the multinational pharmaceutical giant, Merck. He thought this was extremely interesting and set in progress research which led to the development of what has become a best-selling drug, finasteride, which blocks the action of 5-alpha-reductase, mimicking the lack of dihydro-testosterone seen in the Guevedoces.

My wife, who is a GP, routinely prescribes finasteride as it is an effective way to treat benign enlargement of the prostate, a real curse for many men as they get older. Finasteride is also used to treat male pattern baldness.

A final interesting observation that Imperato-McGinley made was that these boys, despite being brought up as girls, almost all showed strong heterosexual preferences. She concluded in her seminal paper that hormones in the womb matter more than rearing when it comes to your sexual orientation.

This is still a controversial topic and one I explore later in the film when I meet Mati, who decided from the earliest age that though "he" looked like a boy, Mati was really a girl.

As for Johnny, since he developed male genitalia he has had a number of short term girlfriends, but he is still looking for love. "I'd like to get married and have children, a partner who will stand by me through good and bad," he sighs wistfully.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

It sounds like nature is stronger than nurture when it comes to sexuality and some gender norms.