Rei, I completely disagree. But I am trying to start my own religion so I have no need to justify myself to you because I take what I say on faith. My religion heavily borrows from Buddhism but I take out all the stuff you say I have to believe. Jesus is in there too. The Joseon Royal Tomb idea sounds interesting, any others characters you think I should take? Maybe that Abraham dude, he has his name on a lot of stuff. Shit, maybe I'll give you a part in the book I'm going to write if you ask nicely.
anticlimacus wrote:
1. Again, sometimes the difference, in practice, is blurred as both you and I have agreed. But sometimes it is not, which, as I repeat, is why it is important to make the distinction. Your views about religion and tolerance are not entirely accurate. Locke, for instance, who was a Christian wrote "A Letter Concerning Toleration," advocating for the tolerance of pluralism. That was mostly a political view, but even so there are many religious people who think that there is no need to convert the world. God works, for instance, in all facets of life whether we know it or not and coming to an explicit Christian faith is not necessary nor always desired. Many Christians believe this--Karl Rahner, for instance, who was a prominent Catholic theologian or Paul Tillich who was a prominent Protestant theologian, both held similar views. Some atheists may feel this way in relation to belief or non belief, but there are some who feel that religion and belief in any deities is a problem that should be controlled and dealt with. They are just as intolerant of religious belief as religious fundamentalists are of other beliefs, a practical distinction which needs to be made from agnostics.
Hey I know you took a long time to write this and I appreciate that. But let me just say something: you're just being an apologist for Christianity. Which is fine, I get it. Agnostics oftentimes make arguments for Christians. They also frequently make arguments against Christianity. But you can't make an argument for not God and yes God at the same time.
As for the Christians allowing toleration, all I have to say is it's like white people taking credit for abolition. Oh great, you solved a problem that you invented and perpetrated. Thanks.
2. Again, you are rejecting a far right version of "the Abrhamics." There are many more liberal Christians who do not hold such views about hell. Way back actually in the first century, a theologian named Origin argued for Universal Salvation--that God saves all, regardless of their beliefs, through Christ. Even the apostle Paul at times held this view. The point is that religious belief is much more nuanced than many atheists often give credit.
"At times held this view".
Ya don't kid yourself or me. That view is not common and you know this. Come on, I know a lot about Christianity, I have done this rodeo a few times. The idea that you must believe in Jesus is very well supported by the bible. You really have to stretch the meaning of Jesus promising heaven to a dude next to him on the cross after he said he believed in him to mean that everyone is saved. The moral of Christianity is basically that we all suck and we need to acknowledge the huge sacrifice Jesus made for our sins, and only through him can you be saved.
I really hate how people don't wanna own up to the barbarism of their ancestors. My great grandpa was a wife beater. See, I did if, that wasn't so hard. Now you admit God only saves Christians.
3. Call it whatever you want--and there are many atheists who are organized. But the point is that these atheists do in fact want a world without religion. How they go about achieving that end can vary, but they are not exactly tolerant. This too has a long tradition. Many socialists, for instance, have felt that religion should be banned.
What's fascinating to me is that often times atheists construct an ideal version of their own beliefs--as if they are pure or "default" as you say. They do this in relation to what they call the "superstitious" or "primitive" beliefs of religion. They construct a worldview to they which claim to be more rational and reasonable than religious people. The worldview they construct they hold onto quite dogmatically, often even developing a sort of persecution complex, to which salvation comes through expunging the world of all superstition--to which only they know. The irony is that while they deride religion as irrational, primitive, and superstitious they tend to be quite religious about their atheism.
Ok? And what? That's a pretty grandiose response to me saying that militant atheism as a term is a joke. We organize out of need. Maybe you never met any kind of hate over your religion. I could give you concrete examples do what my family fought for so you had the right to be tolerated for your agnosticism. You think this toleration was built out of thin air? Try being an atheist back in the late 1800's and early 20th century, and being an activist for atheism. There's a reason we got organized, when we weren't we were ostracized by these tolerant Christians.
But we don't even have to go to my ancestors, I have had all sorts of experiences with Christians that let me know how most of them really feel. Of course you'll just say it's the individual Christians, not all Christians. But oh man how many times do I have to hear that line before I can say fuck off?
By the way if you can't see how weekly brainwash meetings accompanied with daily brainwash prayers and threats of eternal punishment to little kids isn't messed up maybe you truly have never given religion a critical view through the lens of there being no God. Because a lot of people say they have considered the atheist's position and thus declare themselves agnostic while covertly making arguments for God and not letting go of their Christian worldview. Have you truly looked at religion through the eyes of it all being fake brainwashing people turn to in order to feel better? Or do you still see logic in what a Christian says but can't justify your faith logically?
I'm sorry for the late reply and I hope you don't take what I say personally because I am generalizing here.
That's probably the most direct way that it can be put. That is pretty much it.
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