[sploop!]

War Angel: Rodion has still used the word 'Nazi' less times than you have - in the past week.

Where I come from, we call this 'lying'. In the context in which you are lying, we can ascribe an intention to the lying. I suspect that in this case the intention is to undermine and derail. It's fine, it used to piss me off, but I'm used to it now. I guess they teach this sort of stuff in IDF military school. If you're going to do war crimes, then it's useful to be able to lie your ass off to cover up later, plus, lying is a transferable skill you can use later in life, when the most dangerous thing you do is post garbage in a serious forum.

Dr. House: Thanks for proving Donald's point, Sploop.

My pleasure.

Donald: It is already widely believed by the anti-Israel camp that Israel assaults Palestinians with indiscriminate ferocity (even though it doesn't)...

Evidence? I have plenty of data that suggests the opposite.

[War Angel]

It's fine, it used to piss me off, but I'm used to it now.

As a semi-professional Jewbuster, you must be used to our inherent lying, deceptive manner.

I guess they teach this sort of stuff in IDF military school.

Yes, right along Cooking with Palestinian Blood 101.

[sploop!]

As a semi-professional Jewbuster, you must be used to our inherent lying, deceptive manner.

Ah, back to territory I recognise - the implied accusation of Anti-Semitism. Actually, I am beginning to get used to the lying of the Israeli authorities and the Zionists. Is that almost the same?

[War Angel]

the implied accusation of Anti-Semitism.

Implied? You're an antisemite. Hell, you're a nearly classic case, like QatzelOk.

Actually, I am beginning to get used to the lying of the Israeli authorities and the Zionists. Is that almost the same?

EXACTLY the same.

[sploop!]

Keep on believing that, War Angel, if it makes you happy.

[Zyx]

sploop!'s analysis is correct. Furthermore, as per the murder of civilians, Israel is a leader over Palestinian resistance. However, I'd add that Israel's trading deal also has an technological boon associated with it. That is, Israel has a military-industrial complex to fuel as well. The death of Palestinians would mean the lessining of Israel's investments into weaponry, lest it starts fights with bigger populations. In this respect, the Israeli sustain the Palestinians in order to have more military scientists, weapons practice grounds, a standing army and more technological tradings. The OP speaks to Israel's policy therefore: become nonthreatened by the Palestinians, but use them for testing new military weaponry for international prestige in armaments.

The phrase came up when discussing women, but it can better fit when discussing the most Nazi-like humans who would perform human experimentation for the purpose of military advancement: "Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?"

The U.S. probably spends millions for weapon experimentation and combat training--Israel makes money off of the same thing in Palestinian settlements through trade and more misappropriation.

[danholo]

While people remain convinced about Israel's inherent evil nature, I thought these relevant to the subject:

UN backtracks on claim that deadly IDF strike hit Gaza school
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061476.html

The United Nations has reversed its stance on one of the most contentious and bloody incidents of the recent Israel Defense Forces operation in Gaza, saying that an IDF mortar strike that killed 43 people on January 6 did not hit one of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools after all.

It seems that the UN has been under pressure to put the record straight after doubts arose that the school had actually been targeted. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, said Monday that the IDF mortar shells fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself.

Gaylord said that the UN "would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school."
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UNRWA, an agency whose sole purpose is to work with Palestinian refugees, said in response Tuesday that it had maintained from the day of attack that the wounded were outside of the school compound. UNRWA said that the source of the mistake in recent weeks had originated with a separate branch of the United Nations.

Senior IDF officials had previously expressed skepticism that the school had been struck, saying that two mortar shells could not kill 43 people and wound dozens more.

Questions about the veracity of the claims that the school had been hit by the IDF were also raised last week by the Canadian newspaper The Globe and Mail. The newspaper said that a teacher in the UNRWA compound at the time of the strike "was adamant" that no people had been killed inside the compound.

The newspaper quoted the teacher as saying that, "I could see some of the people had been injured... But when I got outside, it was crazy hell. There were bodies everywhere, people dead, injured, flesh everywhere."

The newspaper said that the teacher had been told by the UN not to speak to the media. "Three of my students were killed," he said. "But they were all outside."

Gaza doctor who lost daughters in IDF strike: Everyone makes mistakes
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061189.html

Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish, who lost three daughters and a niece in an Israel Defense Forces strike in the Gaza Strip last month, responded Wednesday to an IDF statement confirming that it was Israeli fire that killed his daughters, thanking those responsible for investigating the incident and saying that "we all make mistakes, and we don't repeat them."

Abu al-Aish, a father of eight, became one of the symbols of the Gaza offensive for Israelis after he captivated TV viewers with a sobbing live report on the death of his three daughters and his niece in Israeli shelling. The 55-year-old gynecologist trained in Israeli hospitals and speaks Hebrew.

The IDF announced earlier Wednesday that an investigation into the January 16 incident confirmed that it had been Israeli fire that killed the four girls.
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"First of all, I would like to thank all those who worked, and had the courage and good conscience to shed light on the truth that I always believed. Thank you to everyone who took upon themselves to publicize this truth seeking investigation," Abu al-Aish said in an interview with Channel 2.

The Palestinian doctor went on to say "I have two options - the path of darkness or the path of light. The path of darkness is like choosing all the complications with diseases and depression, but the path of light is to focus on the future and my children. This strengthened my conviction to continue on the same path and not to give up."

Abu al-Aish did not neglect to thank the Israelis who met with him and offered him strength, saying "the love that I've received, from people I knew and people I didn't know, gave me strength."

The IDF released the conclusions of its investigation into the incident earlier Wednesday, explaining that Golani troops had been fired upon by snipers situated in the house adjacent to Abu al-Aish's home. The troops identified suspicious figures in the upper levels of the doctor's building, and deduced that they were serving as observers, directing the sniper fire from their vantage point.

Following long deliberations and assessments of the situation, the Golani commander decided to fire tank shells at the building, and when the soldiers heard the screams and realized civilians had been hit, they helped evacuate them, the investigation revealed.

The army argues further that the residents of the neighborhood were urged to evacuate the area prior to the attack via thousands of leaflets that were disseminated in the area, and that the doctor was personally asked by phone to evacuate his family from the neighborhood due to the fighting.

Abu al-Aish denied that there were any militants in the building at the time of the shelling.

The IDF spokesman's office issued a statement extending the IDF's condolences over the incident, but maintaining that the IDF operated within reason in light of the sniper fire directed at the troops and the heavy fighting in the region.

After the initial shitstorm subsides after various accusations and dozens of thread pages, nobody makes an effort, from the accusing side, to "lessen the damage a little". That is soo, honest, man. I will want to hear a follow-up when this news piece will be ignored and people touting how the IDF "disregards UN schools, or destroys them out of malice".

[Maas]

While people remain convinced about Israel's inherent evil nature, I thought these relevant to the subject:

they chemical warfare, the killing UN people, bombing the foodsupplies multiple times.... it is obvious enough.

After the initial shitstorm subsides after various accusations and dozens of thread pages, nobody makes an effort, from the accusing side, to "lessen the damage a little". That is soo, honest, man. I will want to hear a follow-up when this news piece will be ignored and people touting how the IDF "disregards UN schools, or destroys them out of malice".

dunno... only 1 independent person sais that the Israeli claim that they didn't hit the school directly is correct.
People who are shit scared and traumatized are't the most reliable sources. That's a no-brainer.

And I would think it's kind of obvious... if the building is (partially) destroyed, than the building is (partially) destroyed.
If so and the building was full of people, something nobody denies,... than it's certain people died there.
You don't need an eye-witness for that one. Just a person with a camera.

So... does Israel let in the media or is it still of limmits for their own propaganda reasons.

[danholo]

it is obvious enough.

Context notwithstanding.

dunno...

You sure hit the nail on its head this time.

No evidence suggests that IDF in its battles does or acts anyhow how any of you believe i.e. malice or "inherent evil".

[Metal Gear]

Anti-semitism is racism against Jews. Saying negative things about Jewish behavior isn't anti-semitism if you don't imply that the behavior is a result of their Jewishness.

[sploop!]

Metal Gear welcome to the crazy world of the PoFo Israel debate, where every criticism of Israel, no matter how small or inconsequential is treated as evidence of Anti-Semitism, where all Europeans are, by default Anti-Semitic, where the words 'Jew', 'Israeli' and 'Victim' all have exactly the same meaning, where every fact is false...

Here's an audio story about one of the schools that was hit by Israel. There are some useful photographs to back the report up.

Tell then who my children were - Dr. Abeulish

Of all the tragedies to befall the Palestinians, few have been as utterly, utterly and utterly heartbreaking as the story of a Palestinian doctor who lost three of his daughters in an apparent Israeli strike in Gaza on Friday. A niece of the doctor was also killed, and another daughter and another niece were seriously wounded.

Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish has been speaking movingly on Israeli television of the loss of his daughters, Bisan, 20, a business student who had participated in a peace camp with Israeli youth in the U.S., Mayar, 15, and Aya, 14, and his niece, Nur, 17.

Fluent in Hebrew, Abu al-Aish had spent many years working with Israeli hospitals. During the three-week Gaza war, he has frequently been interviewed on Israeli TV about the conditions on the ground in Gaza. Abu al-Aish’s home is in the Jabaliya refugee camp, north of Gaza City and near the border. An Israeli army spokesman said that IDF solidiers had apparently been returning fire from Palestinian fighters who had fired on them from the area.

Israeli TV viewers witnessed a phone call from Abu al-Aish to a television journalist Friday night in which he wailed, “My daughters have been killed!” Visibly moved, the journalists proceeded to assist Abu al-Aish in getting injured family members across the Gaza border for emergency medical assistance in Israel.

Adding to Abu al-Aish’s grief, however, he was jeered by several angry Israelis on Saturday while talking to reporters at the Chaim Sheba medical center in Tel Hashomer after making an emotional plea to Israelis “to live together” with Palestinians. The confrontation occurred hours before Israeli PM Ehud Olmert announced a unilateral Israeli ceasefire in Gaza, possibly bringing an end to the conflict.

Israel’s Y-Net news site identified one of the jeering Israelis as the mother of three IDF soldiers serving in Gaza, and quoted her yelling, “Why is he engaging in propaganda? He’s talking against Israel at the Sheba hospital. You should all be ashamed. All my children are serving in Gaza. Who knows what he had at his home? What’s wrong with you, have you all gone crazy? My son is in the paratroopers, who knows what you had inside your home, nobody is talking about that. Nobody is talking. Who knows what kind of weapons were in your house. So what if he’s a doctor? The soldiers knew exactly. They had weapons inside the home, you should be ashamed. I have three soldiers, why are they firing at them? All of you should be ashamed.”

Afterwards, Abu al-Aish continued speaking about his daughters, according to Y-Net:

“They participated in peace camps everywhere. Were they armed when they were killed? They were not armed with weapons, but rather, with love, love for others. They planned to travel to Canada. I got a job in Canada and they wanted to come with me. Why did they ruin my hopes? My children.

“I turn to all of you, to the entire world, so you know that my children were the ultimate price, and I don’t want anyone to taste what I suffered. I want them to be the ultimate price for a ceasefire, that’s what I want. The Israeli government should tell the truth. I want my children to be the victims of peace…I am armed with love and peace. This is what I’m armed with. My children were armed with love and peace.”

Abu al-Aish, 52, reportedly lost his wife to Leukemia four months earlier.

Source: Time/JTA

source

The video from this report is here. That poor man. Dr. Abu al-Aish is a peace activist as well as a Doctor, and, like danholo, I am particularly struck by his continuing faith in peace following the casual destruction of his family by the IDF. He's a much better man than I am.

Sadly, I am also struck by the immediacy with which this situation was dealt with, and I can't help but wonder if the fact that it was all happening live on Television didn't have something to do with that. I remember that only a few days earlier, IDF soldiers had killed some women in Gaza, leaving the women's children to starve next to the dead bodies of their mothers. There seemed to be no great rush to offer any help to those poor kids. In fact, quite the opposite.

[Muslim]

Israel: why minimize collateral damage?

Actually I believe that maximizing the collateral damage is an objective for the Israelis. Israel wants to exert pressure on Hamas and to decrease its popularity among the Gazans. They are sending a message to the Gazans: "Look! All that is because of Hamas. You should hate Hamas."

[Maas]

You sure hit the nail on its head this time.

by just quoting 1 word out of a full sentence you seem to have found the nail but lost the mallet.

No evidence suggests that IDF in its battles does or acts anyhow how any of you believe i.e. malice or "inherent evil".

tell that to the UN who recieved the full force of Jewish chemical warfare.

[danholo]

by just quoting 1 word out of a full sentence you seem to have found the nail but lost the mallet.

I'm just dodging, man. You honestly believe in what you say, so what's the point of responding with a full-argument to an accusation?

tell that to the UN who recieved the full force of Jewish chemical warfare.

Phosphorus shells being "Jewish chemical warfare"? I wonder why we didn't use our stockpiles of anthrax. Oh yeah, that's reserved for you Dutch people.

/this forum is really becoming a crapheap of misconceptions and illusion. First it's "chemical warfare", then poisoning wells... I wonder when you two (sploop) will accuse of us actually harvesting Palestinians for nutrition.

[sploop!]

Here's my challenge to you danholo.

You can believe that we are anti-Semites at heart, or a bit dull-witted, or prone to flights of fancy...

Or you can seriously engage with the possibility that we are expressing a sentiment that may be held by a great many people, and which is provoked by the behaviour of Israel.

I don't think any of us want to believe this stuff. I'd love to be able to look at Israel and see a proud new nation born out of the horrors of the holocaust. But that isn't what I am seeing. And it doesn't matter that you say the Israelis you know are nice. I'm sure they are. But their nation is crushing the life out of a neighbour - worse still, it seems to be populated by people like yourself, people who don't even care that the settlements are built on stolen land, that the whole nation of Israel is founded on the most hideous of behaviours, and that the neighbour from hell that Israel has become continues to terrorise the neighbourhood.

[Maas]

/this forum is really becoming a crapheap of misconceptions and illusion.

blaim the Jew that is "just dodging, man" with no interest to respond to an argument.

Phosphorus shells being "Jewish chemical warfare"?

duh

[jaycola]

It appears that the UN is rapidly changing it's opinion of Hamas and the Gaza conflict since Hamas stole food destined for Palestinian citizens.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7869704.stm

And since Hamas have been accused of the torture and death of civilians who openly oppose them. http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... USLT773276

And since "suspected" collaborators were shot during and after war. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... al-attacks

Oh, and since it came to light that the supposed UN school bombing never happened...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489601,00.html

They now call the PLO, an organization which brought together disparate palestinian groups together and has fought for the rights of palestinians for nearly 50 years "obsolete." The world community accepts the PLO as the voice of Palestinians internationally but Hamas rejects them.

They are treated as goons and terrorists by the international community because they act like goons and terrorists.

I can't believe how blindly some people here throw their support behind Hamas.

[sploop!]

I love Hamas, me. Are you for real?

[MVictorP]

It appears that the UN is rapidly changing it's opinion of Hamas and the Gaza conflict since Hamas stole food destined for Palestinian citizens.

Hamas are Palestinian citizens. Not only that, but they were elected, in a democratic process, as the authority in Palestine. They are no mere bunch of thieves.

And since Hamas have been accused of the torture and death of civilians who openly oppose them.
And since "suspected" collaborators were shot during and after war.

You mean... like traitors and collaborators in the US? Horrible.

Oh, and since it came to light that the supposed UN school bombing never happened...

FoxNews

They now call the PLO, an organization which brought together disparate palestinian groups together and has fought for the rights of palestinians for nearly 50 years "obsolete." The world community accepts the PLO as the voice of Palestinians internationally but Hamas rejects them.

The PLO is so cool with zionists these days because they are not Palestine's legitimate government. Any party which has been, or will become Palestine's authority is, for zionist, a de facto ennemy, a creature that they shall depict as barbarous savages, completely inhuman, just like you did.

They are treated as goons and terrorists by the international community because they act like goons and terrorists.

Like about everybody else out there, beginning by the "civilised" IDF and "benevolant" Israeli goverment which, it is necessary to add, only voted in three war criminals as Prime Ministers to date.

I can't believe how blindly some people here throw their support behind Hamas.

This is not about Hamas. This about a people that was dispossessed, and wich is brutally occupied because of the zionists' apharteist regime. If Hamas was such a monster, why did Mossad favored it to fight the PLO mere years ago? Zionists shouldn't complain anout their own golems.

Now, how about people that support the rabid little apatheist military regime?