[Bosnjak]

@Zionists if you realy want peace, You have to offer much much more like line of 1947 and reperations, you need this peace because you lost your support in the West entirely, and the USA is also loosing the ability to lead further wars.

The Balance of power is slowly changing, and if Israelis do not want to be repatried to good old Europe in 30 Years you have to make hard compromises. Since the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Israel is loosing land.



United Nations Partition Plan, 1947

[Aekos]

Bosnjake, that map isn't realistic today. The peace process uses pre-1967 maps, and those will likely be the borders of a future Palestinian state.

[Oxymoron]

East Jerusalem should be the Palestinian capitol, and the old city should be overseen by a joint Israeli/International/Palestinian authority.

[Sephardi]

Bosnjak no way is that plan going to be acceptable. Your talking about giving Tel Aviv and Jaffa to them, while also giving any land that has anything on it them, and leaving the Jews with desert and no major cities. Many of the areas you want to be part of a Palestinian state has majority Jews living on it.

[Godstud]

Where are these zionists you speak of?
I am as much a zionist as you, Bosnjak, and your buddy Lin Zexu!
Keep your bigotry to yourself.

Normal people want peace, don't you too? Are all arabs just war-mongers or isn't peace what everyone wants?

Reparations: Remember the Treaty of Versailles and those war reparations that in part led to WW2?

Do you honestly believe that Israel is going anywhere?

USA is also loosing the ability to lead further wars.

They are just not losing any ability, just the will to pursue wars of conquest. They are fully capable of winning any wars if they are not going to have to walk in and try to invoke democracy and repair the country they are at war with. Why is it people so underestimate the US in this regard and need to be spanked?
Saddam Hussein predicted exactly the same thing.

Since the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Israel is loosing land.

Where are they losing this land?

Repatriated to Europe? Israel is there to stay and nothing is going to change that.

[Bosnjak]

@Sephardi The map has poor graphic, here an other map of 1947.

East Jerusalem should be the Palestinian capitol, and the old city should be overseen by a joint Israeli/International/Palestinian authority.

O.K. West-Jerusalem should be the Jewish capitol.







In Balkan (South-Eastern Europe), It was possible to achieve peace thanks to International Troops, Ethnical Conflicts in Balkan are much older then your Conflict (For Example: Serbs and Albanians have troubles since nearly 1400 Years, We Bosnians and Serbs have since 1100 Years troubles or 600 Years), we self were not able to found an solution so we got help from outside.

First stage was the Peace Threaty, Second ethnical groups were divided by international forces then slowly the Situation normalized, Now we have still hatred, violence happens on each sport event when the groups meet each other and showing their flags.

We fought still each other when ever it is possible, in Stadions, football, baskettball, Hockey, and even at Australian opens

Hooliganism is less funny then war and genocide.

Bosnians

Serbs

[Aekos]

We Bosnians and Serbs have since 1100 Years troubles or 600 Years)

There weren't really Bosniaks back then (you were Bosnians, people of the Kingdom of Bosnam, and only distinguished from Serbs by your own form of Christianity). The conflict really started hundreds of years after Turkish occupation (which started in the 14th century). Some Bosnians were converted to Islam and others stayed Christians. The ones that converted chose to identify with their religion as Bosniaks and the ones that stayed Christian identified as Serbs.

And yes, those hooligans are jackasses .

[Bosnjak]

@Aekos There were no Serbs in Bosnia when the Turks invaded, there were only Bosnian Catholics and Bogumils (a Bosnian Christian Sekt)... lets discuss this things an other time.


I like also Tito (not Titus ), but Alija too. Druze Tito druze tito mi ti se koljemo, mi ti se koljemo



@Godstud I do not think that Israel will disappear tomorrow but in the next decades. Let have a look at history: The Jewish state was founded several times and stayed for some time and disappeared, the Jews were not able to live in peace with its neighbours.

Reperations were not the Reason why hitler came on Power, it was the great depression. Consider this not as reperations rather as payments for an bailout for deported Palestinians. Keep in mind that 100 Years ago it was their Land.


To destroy a country you need only ABC-Weapons, but to conquer it you need ground forces, according to several US Generals are the US Forces overstreched in Afghanistan and Iraq except the US-Air Force.

[Godstud]

If you're just out to destroy a military and crush the country, the US showed it could do it in 6 weeks back in 91. If it did this to Iran do you honestly think there would be different outcome?
In Iraq they are doing an OCCUPATION and not CONQUERING. Were they conquering it would be much simpler.

Reparations were the primary reason that the German economy went into depression almost immediately after WW1.
Also, do you honestly think that the Arab states would think reparations and cutting up Israel would be sufficient when they are calling for the death of all Jews?
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -jews.html
Deny it all you want, but the sentiment is there & it's driven by religion and the state.


Israel is a relatively strong state now and countries now can have allies 10,000s of miles away that can still influence things. This wasn't the case in the past.
The Jewish state isn't going to just disappear no matter how much the Arabs want it.

[Tailz]

Oh Bosnjak, those old maps will not work in todays world with todays current events. To achive peace, true peace, there is going to be a bit of giving and taking and a shifting of borders. Both the Israeli’s and Palestinians understand this – it is the amount of land and where that is the issue there. The Israeli settlements will mostly go, the Israeli’s know this themselves, even though the hard line settlers don’t wish this to happen. The Israeli’s have offered a compensation system in return for the Palestinians giving up the right of return – even Arafat agreed with Barak that the compensation deal was a good point to negotiate the exchange of the right of return on.

I don’t see how the Palastinians can create a single functional state when it is cut in two by both the mass of Israel, and Palastinian factional fighting between Hamas and Fatah.

[Bosnjak]

@Godstud Qardawi Has given the fatwa for suicide bombers and to kill every Israeli (not Jew), because in his eyes are even Israeli Civilians a Part of the Occupation force should been fought. He gave this Fatwa after an Israeli (Baruch Goldstein) went in the Abraham Mosque (Hebron) shooting 29 Palestinians and wounding 150 during a muslim praying. After this the hamas started Suicide-Missions.

[Godstud]

One psycho does a horrible act and kills 29 Palestinians and wounds 150 so then Qardawi gives the fatwa for suicide bombers and to kill every Israeli. Pathetic.
While it's a horrible act, the following act is even worse since it isn't the act of a lone nutcase(Baruch Goldstein) and it opens the door to shitloads of murder.
Murder is murder whether it's Palestinians or Israelis. Hamas are immoral cur if their solution to a tragedy is to create more.

If someone blew up an Israeli bus and killed 20 people that would be provocation for Israelis to kill all Palestinians??? That's just fucking stupid and shows the mind numbing idiocy that occurs when hatred gets in the way of reason.

These acts set back Palestine every time they occur.

[muzioler5]

Not to bring the topic back or anything... but a realistic peace is pretty obvious. If you look at the Camp David accords and the subsequent Taba summit you can see that there really wasn't that much of a difference between what Israel proposed and what Palestine proposed. Honestly, we just need the right governments in order to bring it back. I honestly think that if Kadima wins today, there is a chance for peace assuming that Hamas follows suite.

As for what the state of Palestine would look like is pretty obvious:

1) A nation founded approximately on the 1967 lines. There would be some minor tweaking here and there, but it'll overall be the same. The Arabs will have to give up some of the land surrounding Jerusalem (although none of the area within Jerusalem or the old city) while the Israelis would have to give up some area either in the South or somewhere else touching the West Bank. I can't see the land transfer being more than +/- 2% of the territory of the West Bank.

2) Jerusalem will be split. This will obviously be the toughest part. I remember from the books I read about how Bill Clinton cut Jerusalem down from street-to-street. This will have to be done again. It is possible that Jerusalem could become an international city of sorts and honestly, I kinda hope it does; however it is more likely that we'll have a situation resembling pre-1967 where there is a contentious peace.

3) There will be some payments to the Palestinians and MAYBE a token right of return. The payments will come from international sources is my guess. The latter part is what is curious, the Right of Return. The Palestinians hold it as their fundamental right while the Israelis obviously don't want a 5th column within their own country. I bet Israel offers like 100k the right to return and fewer than that take it. Im wondering what happens with the Israeli Arabs though... will they choose to stay or will some prefer to live in a Palestinian state? It'll be their choice, but it could be an interesting development.

4) Honestly, I think those are the main issues but of course there will be some other minor ones as well. There will probably be a corridor of some sorts between Gaza and the West Bank. There will be some international police force in the Palestinian areas until the Israelis feel comfortable. My guess is there will still be walls to prevent terrorists from getting in. Israel probably will allow Palestinians to work within Israel too. I think these are all minor issues though while the big ones are up above.

Personally, people on both sides who don't approximately believe in these ideas are either too radical or naive on the issues. Minor modifications are possible (IE no right of return or fully back to the 1967 borders), but anything outside of the scope is ridiculous given the current situation. Those who believe that Israel will take all of Jerusalem or that the Palestinians will have a full right of return are just spouting politics and not looking for solutions

[danholo]

The main naivety is disregarding any and all extremist elements in both sides and assume that they'll remain quiet and "happy". Any and all decisions will lead to a blood shed of some sorts. For example, Hamas is a very powerful force within Palestinian society and will not, ever, change their position on Palestine.

[muzioler5]

See, I disagree Danholo... a similar thing could've been said about the PLO in the past. People and organizations change. Hamas could be brought into the fold with time or with pressure from Arab nations. Its not as unlikely as it sounds.

As for extremist elements, I do worry about those; however they could be curtailed. This election is a huge deal in my opinion today since it could end up with one side of the equation as radical. Im cheering for Kadima, but I believe Likud could win with a strong showing from Yisrael Beiteinu. If thats the case, I don't see much hope over the next few years.

[danholo]

You are "cheering" for Kadima? Good luck, have fun.

Hamas could be brought into the fold with time or with pressure from Arab nations. Its not as unlikely as it sounds.

So you are expecting these people to change their religion, or something? There's a reason why us Jews didn't stop being Jews, and I don't believe your "high hopes" will change the fact that some people just don't change.

I don't see much hope over the next few years.

Taken out of context, this is probably the most accurate statement to make. Let's just love the shit, and see what happens!

[muzioler5]

You are "cheering" for Kadima? Good luck, have fun.

Won't be much fun given the current polls.

So you are expecting these people to change their religion, or something? There's a reason why us Jews didn't stop being Jews, and I don't believe your "high hopes" will change the fact that some people just don't change.

Some people don't change? That sentiment, while popular on bumper stickers and facebook profiles, goes against the trends occurring in the area. While you can't pretend that Egypt and Jordan are now buddies with Israel, the general governments (and even the people when Israel isn't attacking Gazans or the Lebanese) tends to believe that Israel ought to exist. Similarly, the leadership of the PLO has changed drastically from declaring that all of Palestine must belong to them to believing in a 2 state solution.

To state that some people don't change and leave it at that is defeatist and ignores reality.

Let's just love the shit, and see what happens!

Eh, Im not going to be too effected personally by what happens in Israel for quite a few years so Im fine with this approach.

[Godstud]

Muzioler5 I hope your optimism is well founded. That whole region could use a big long lasting peace.

[danholo]

To state that some people don't change and leave it at that is defeatist and ignores reality.

Ideas and texts stand the test of time. The Qur'an isn't going anywhere. You are also ignoring reality by avoiding the fact that radical Islam is alive and well, and people want it to be the governing force in the entire world. I certainly believe people are capable of change but some people aren't and one must be wary and cautious of them. If people say they want me dead, and my house destroyed, and repeat it over and over again, I'll tend to believe it no matter how much you close your eyes. Hamas itself will never change their goals but it doesn't mean Palestinians will always favor Hamas. A pinch of radicalism is healthy everywhere but I don't wish totalitarian ideology and its proponents to be my master, nor do I want them as my business partner. Hamas going against themselves? Do you actually expect them to "become evil"?

[Nets]

Just as a point of reference w.r.t. a Palestinian state, here is a map estimation of Olmert's most recent proposal (obviously approximate and based on leaked info):



Click the picture for larger