[Rei Murasame]

Israeli democracy seems to only be for Jews and not for their Arab brothers. This is of course because they are unrepentantly racist and xenophobic.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Arabs with Israeli citizenship have equal rights those who dont have a citizenship like these guys that were deported dont have equal rights its simple.

[redcarpet]

Arabs with Israeli citizenship have equal rights those who dont have a citizenship like these guys that were deported dont have equal rights its simple.

Yes, forigners in a state they're not a citizen of aren't supposed to have equal rights, anyway. The exclamation by people because of this shows a pretty big ignorance, or lack of memory, of where gaps in the law are established. Or they just don't care. Like that all Palestinians, even those who weren't born in Israel or have Israeli parents, should have the same rights as Israeli citizens; even though they're foreigners.

No society in the world has citizenship laws like that.

[Heinie]

Arabs with Israeli citizenship have equal rights

Untrue.

those who dont have a citizenship like these guys that were deported dont have equal rights its simple.

East Jerusalem is not in Israel.

[redcarpet]

Untrue.

They do, that's why you fail to provide a citation.

There is a difference between discriminatory laws and discriminatory practices. They are equal in law, but there are Israeli Jews that violate it by engaging in discrimination.

The Israeli Government doesn't legislate for different levels of wages, that's Jewish employers being racist by underpaying Arab employees. And on and on it goes, from one example to another.

There certainly wouldn't be equality in laws and practices if a one-state solution is introduced. Jews would become a persecuted minority in an Arab majority state, that would most likely vote for Hamas into power in the first election, given Fatah's failings

[Zionist Nationalist]

East Jerusalem is not in Israel.

Did I say East Jerusalem was in Israel?

The Arabs in east Jerusalem dont have Israeli citizenship although they have an option to get it

I personaly dont think East Jerusalem should be part of Israel. Its a shithole it should be part of the west bank and let them rot there

[noemon]

They do, that's why you fail to provide a citation.

They don't.

Israel is the only “democracy” in the world that nationalized almost all if its land and prohibited even the leasing of most of agricultural lands to non-Jews, a situation made possible by a complex framework of legal arrangements with the Jewish National Fund, including the Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960), the Israel Lands Law and Israel Lands Administration Law (1960), as well as the Covenants between the Government of the State of Israel and the WZO of 1954 and the JNF of 1961.

Starting from the beginning of the 2000s there is an ongoing debate including governmental officials whether different issues arising from the national ownership of the land can be solved. On July 12, 2003 and on February 4, 2004 the Constitution, Law, and Justice Committee met as the committee for the Constitution by Broad Consensus to discuss this problem.[1]

One basic issue was the difference in the rights of Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Palestinians could not purchase land in most Jewish areas. Nor could Palestinians expand their villages as population growth demanded, but Jewish villages could readily expand as needed. These issues have not been addressed in the land reform discussions.

One Israeli prosecutor tried to change these discriminatory laws inscribed in the ILA and JNF statutes but unfortunately his efforts were in vain as nothing came of it since 2005 when he initiated intergovernmental debate on the issue.

All land managed by the Israel Lands Administration, including land owned by the Jewish National Fund, will be marketed without discrimination or limits including to non-Jews, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz decided yesterday.
The revolutionary decision followed a discussion held in Mazuz's office attended by senior members of the state prosecutor's office and the legal advisers to the JNF and the ILA. The ruling was made in preparation for the state's response to High Court petitions filed on the matter.
The state prosecutor's office believes it will not be able to defend before the High Court the policy of allocating Jewish National Fund land to Jews only. Within the next few weeks, the state is supposed to inform the High Court of its position on petitions filed against the Israel Lands Administration, which prevents non-Jews from participating in tenders for JNF land.
Haaretz has learned that senior members of the state prosecutor's office believe that the policy is unreasonably discriminatory against non-Jews, and will be very difficult to defend in court.
In August and October last year, three petitions against the policy were filed with the High Court. The petitioners - the Arab Center for Alternative Planning, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, and Adalah: The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel - charge that the policy is flawed and runs contrary to the fundamental principles of Israel as a democratic state, and first and foremost, the principle of equality.
Mazuz said at yesterday's meeting that the state could not defend the discrimination against Arabs in the framework of the marketing of JNF land by the ILA. Nevertheless, in order to preserve the original designated purpose of the JNF, which is formally defined as an organization working "on behalf of the Jewish nation," and in the name of the interests of the Diaspora Jews, it was decided that if any ILA tender for land owned by the JNF is won by a non-Jewish citizen, the ILA will transfer alternative land to the JNF.
This arrangement, say Justice Ministry sources, will achieve two objectives. On the one hand, it will preserve the principle of equality and cancel the discrimination against Arabs. On the other hand, the JNF will retain its current quota - some 13 percent of state land - and this land will continue to come under the JNF's principle of using this land "for the purpose of settling Jews."
Yesterday's discussion culminated in a decision to set up a joint state-JNF team to work out the finer details of Mazuz's decision. The team is expected to submit its recommendations within 90 days, and the state prosecution will then submit its response to the High Court petitions.
Justice Ministry sources said that in light of the attorney general's decision, the state prosecutor's office is likely to argue that the petitions are superfluous and should be rejected, subject to the fact that from now on any citizen can participate in an ILA tender for acquiring land or purchasing a housing unit.
The JNF, which is wholly owned by the World Zionist Organization, was established in 1901 and has since been collecting donations from Diaspora Jews for the purpose of purchasing land in Israel. The JNF leases the land to Jews only, in keeping with the fund's regulations.
Since 1961 JNF land has been marketed by the ILA, a state-run entity that manages state land. In contrast to the practice with regard to other state land, non-Jews are currently prohibited from participating in ILA tenders for leasing JNF land.
After the petitions were filed, senior members of the state prosecutor's office informed the heads of the JNF and ILA that it would be very difficult to defend the policy in court.
JNF sources have accused the state prosecutor's office of giving in to post-Zionist trends, and too easily waiving the principle that the State of Israel is the state of the Jewish people.
The JNF published a survey last week that shows that more than 70 percent of the Jewish public in Israel is opposed to allocating JNF land to non-Jews, while more than 80 percent prefer Israel to be defined as the state of the Jewish people and not the state of all its citizens.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/ag-mazuz-rules-j ... s-1.148348

Basic Law: Israel-Lands Law and Israel-Lands Administration Law
In 1960, these two laws were formulated on behalf of Israel government deeming that the land controlled by the JNF would now be administered by a single authority, the Israel Land Administration (ILA).25 However, it was agreed that “the lands controlled by the ILA shall be administered according to the principles of the JNF,” meaning that a Jew has a right to receive land controlled by the ILA, but a non-Jew does not enjoy this right “unless the apartment or plot of land is located in the special 'zone of residence' assigned to non-Jews.”26 The JNF effectively controls the ILA and dominates committees set up to vet applicants to hundreds of rural communities. Given the JNF’s declared goal of “purchasing and developing land as a national resource of the Jewish people, by the Jewish people, and for the Jewish people,” it forbids the ILA from selling or leasing of the land to non-Jews.27 This arrangement has allowed it to discriminate against Arab citizens on behalf of the Israeli government, denying them access in the form of leasing and cultivation to 93% of the land.28
Although the Israeli Supreme Court itself has filed a petition that the policies of the JNF violate Israeli anti- discrimination laws, the Israeli Knesset approved the renewal of the JNF Law in July 2007, in its preliminary reading allowing the JNF to continue the practice of refusing to lease land to Arab citizens. Due to criticism from Arab Members of Knesset a temporary settlement was reached where the JNF was prevented from discriminating on grounds of ethnicity. However, every time land is sold to a non-Jew, the ILA will compensate it with an equivalent amount of land therefore ensuring the total amount owned by Israeli-Jews remains unchanged.29 This is indeed another instance of legal manipulation by the Israeli government.

The Palestinian-Arab citizens of Israel face unique challenges. Discrimination and racism pervade every level of Israeli society, from individual perspectives to legal and systemic policy choices which amount to institutionalized racism. However it is the structural discrimination within the Israeli legal system that provides the foundation for institutionalized bias. This precludes the Palestinians in Israel from enjoying their full civic, political, economic, social and cultural rights. In fact, a recent report submitted by The Adalah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found 17 laws of which are discriminatory on their face, in that they either relate only to the rights of Jews in Israel or abridge the rights of Arab citizens of the State and 3 laws which use neutral language and general terminology but have a discriminatory effect on Arab citizens.8

Constitutional Equality
There is no provision in Israeli law for the concept of constitutional equality. It is absent from The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom, which since 1992 has served as Israel’s constitutional Bill of Rights.9 While laws exist which protect the equal rights of disadvantaged groups such as women and the disabled, no general statute relates to the right to equality for all citizens. Moreover, there is no statute which specifically protects equal rights for the major Arab minority in Israel.

Education
The Israeli education system is based on the State Education Law of 1953. This Law established a system of schools designed to meet the explicit demands of the Jewish community. The objectives the Israeli education system as explicitly stated in Article 2 of this Law are to exclusively advance Jewish culture and Zionist ideology.15
Discriminatory Curriculum
The Minister of Education and Culture is authorized to set education curricula for each state institution and the Arab schools are not outside of the boundaries of Article 2 of this law. As no autonomous educational system has been established for the Arab community, Palestinian students are subjected to an educational curriculum which has been developed by and for the Jewish population: e.g. Arab students are expected to spend more time studying the Torah than their own religious texts; Zionist literature and poetry are included in the standard curriculum, but not Palestinian classics; matriculation exams include questions on Judaism, but not the Muslim, Christian, or Druze faiths.16 In addition, studies have found that Israeli textbooks contain persistent negative and racist references to Arabs and Palestinians.17
The Ministry of Education does not deny that the reason for such direct discrimination in the curriculum is fear that Arab history, culture, elements and symbols will “rouse national feelings among the Arab citizens.”18 In fact, the renowned works of Palestinian poet and writer Mahmoud Darwish can be taught in the Israeli-Jewish curriculum, but are vehemently excluded from the Arab education system due to such fears, thus denying the needs of this community as a minority with a heritage and national affiliation.
Discriminatory Funding for Education
The inferior status of Arab schools is also largely due to discriminatory budget allocations, resulting in a lack of funding and resources. While nearly 1/3 of all Jewish students have received support from government- funded enrichment programs for impoverished students, Arab students are not eligible for these programs. In fact, there is no funding for educational enrichment programs for Arab students in Israel.19 Also, government funded pre-schools do not operate in Arab towns or villages, and more than half of the tens of thousands of Arab children with special needs are denied access to appropriate classes or schools. The result of these and other societal discrepancies is that the education opportunities available to Arab students is vastly inferior to that provided to Jewish students and is reflected in the drop-out rates which, among 16-17 year olds is 40% for Arabs and 9% for Jews.20

Further claims in the report are that Israel prevents its Arab citizens from marrying Palestinian partners if they wish to reside in Israel; the state exercises extreme discrimination in the budgets it allots Arab towns; Arab citizens have been evacuated from their Negev homes under the claim that the homes were illegal; standards for accepting Arab students into higher-education institutions are discriminatory; state laws give official status to Jewish cultural institutions, but not to Arab ones; and the government has not issued any amendments to address the protection of Muslim and Christian holy sites.
The ICERD, drafted in 1966, was one of the first human rights treaties to be adopted by the UN. There are 173 signed states, including Israel, which ratified the ICERD in 1979. The convention commits member states to amend or cancel national laws and policies that create or perpetuate any form of racial discrimination.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/adalah-cent ... y-1.213048

The Adalah Inequality Report.

http://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/ ... h_2011.pdf

[redcarpet]

Right to private property should be absolute, is that what you're saying?

Why would a socialist government produce that kind of right-wing law? My god, listen to yourself.

Also obviously state land should be leased/sold to those that need it. A working-class Israeli Arab in a village that doesn't want to move out or what have you, why should they get land instead of middle-class professionals or what have you? Remember a society had to be built up virtually from scratch.

[noemon]

Right to private property should be absolute, is that what you're saying?

I don't understand what you 're trying to say, property in Israel is nationally managed not privately. Are you claiming that ethnic-discrimination against non-Jewish Israelis on the right to property is not discrimination? How so? Non-Jewish Israeli citizens face severe restrictions on leasing property, non-Jewish schools face severe discriminatory practices. I added a lot more material such as the Adalah Inequality report and the CJPMO report, you should read them.

Education
The Israeli education system is based on the State Education Law of 1953. This Law established a system of schools designed to meet the explicit demands of the Jewish community. The objectives the Israeli education system as explicitly stated in Article 2 of this Law are to exclusively advance Jewish culture and Zionist ideology.15
Discriminatory Curriculum
The Minister of Education and Culture is authorized to set education curricula for each state institution and the Arab schools are not outside of the boundaries of Article 2 of this law. As no autonomous educational system has been established for the Arab community, Palestinian students are subjected to an educational curriculum which has been developed by and for the Jewish population: e.g. Arab students are expected to spend more time studying the Torah than their own religious texts; Zionist literature and poetry are included in the standard curriculum, but not Palestinian classics; matriculation exams include questions on Judaism, but not the Muslim, Christian, or Druze faiths.16 In addition, studies have found that Israeli textbooks contain persistent negative and racist references to Arabs and Palestinians.17
The Ministry of Education does not deny that the reason for such direct discrimination in the curriculum is fear that Arab history, culture, elements and symbols will “rouse national feelings among the Arab citizens.”18 In fact, the renowned works of Palestinian poet and writer Mahmoud Darwish can be taught in the Israeli-Jewish curriculum, but are vehemently excluded from the Arab education system due to such fears, thus denying the needs of this community as a minority with a heritage and national affiliation.

Why would a socialist government produce that kind of right-wing law? My god, listen to yourself.

Why are you asking me? Do you listen to yourself?

[redcarpet]

There are conditions for sales and leases. If you're an Arab Israeli in 1948, why should you be granted land if you won't do anything with it because you're satisfied with 'village life'?

That's absurd. As I pointed out, society had to be built up from day one. Major portions of the Arab population wanted to maintain the status quo. Even if that meant preventing industrialisation and modernisation. Even opposing secular education for crying out loud. Why should an Arab community be allowed to get its way in opposition to a secular government school been constructed in their village in 1948, for example? Because they were content with intentional ignorance? Oh come on!

[Heinie]

Did I say East Jerusalem was in Israel? ...

In a manner of speaking, yes, you did when you claimed that "those who dont have a citizenship like these guys that were deported dont have equal rights its simple." The Tamimi family were living in East Jerusalem yet they were deported as if East Jerusalem is part of Israel. In fact the family was transported from one part of the occupied West Bank to another part.

Meanwhile, Palestinians were transported from the occupied Palestinian town of Tarqumiya for being in the Jewish State of Israel without permits as part of a "nationwide" sweep on Thursday.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/police-arrest-177-palestinians-residing-in-israel-illegally/
The Israelis routinely act as of the Occupied Territories are part of Israel which is contrary to international law.

[noemon]

There are conditions for sales and leases. If you're an Arab Israeli in 1948, why should you be granted land if you won't do anything with it because you're satisfied with 'village life'?

Are you saying that non-Jewish Israelis are inherently incapable of doing something with their lives? Because that sounds quite racist.

You claimed that non-Jewish Israelis are not subject to discrimination, but they are subject to discrimination in property rights, marriage, education and a host of other issues, in fact:

....a recent report submitted by The Adalah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found 17 laws of which are discriminatory on their face, in that they either relate only to the rights of Jews in Israel or abridge the rights of Arab citizens of the State and 3 laws which use neutral language and general terminology but have a discriminatory effect on Arab citizens

Israel prevents its Arab citizens from marrying Palestinian partners if they wish to reside in Israel;

You claimed that no legal discrimination exists for non-Jewish Israeli citizens, now you have been shown that it does exist, so you have changed your tune to trying to justify said discrimination. At least you accept that it exists I take it, and the year is 2016 not 1948.

You said:

They are equal in law

No, they are clearly not.

[Heinie]

Please, let's not have another thread derailed with a dialog between two members that is not addressing the transportation of Palestinians from Israel.

[redcarpet]

Interesting how you use the word 'transportation'. You don't use the term 'deportation'. Foreigners don't have a right of abode in a state, unless were talking about EU Member State's citizens. Non-Israeli citizens don't have the right to abode in Israel. Nor should they.

[noemon]

The study refers to Israeli Arabs not "illegal immigrants" or "foreigners".

Non-Israeli citizens don't have the right to abode in Israel

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens.

[redcarpet]

We're also talking about, or I am, state-less Palestinian Arabs being deported as well. Well, they don't have a right of abode. And even citizens of a society don't have absolute rights. Commit certain crimes and you've mostly lost that right. We all know that, except some posters here.

[Pisa]

They don't.

First, you bring a quote from Kimmerling claiming that the basic laws of Israel discriminate against arabs (how exactly, I wonder).

Then, you bring a quote from a Haaretz article featuring Attorney General Menachem Mazuz with the astounding declaration that JNF leasing land to jews only through ILA is breaking the basic laws of Israel.

Well, if the basic laws discriminate, as Kimmerling claims, why would an Attorney General of Israel declare that JNF actions would be indefensible in a court of law charged with upholding the basic laws of Israel?

As for the Canadians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East, they're just lying. For instance, they say:

While nearly 1/3 of all Jewish students have received support from government- funded enrichment programs for impoverished students, Arab students are not eligible for these programs. In fact, there is no funding for educational enrichment programs for Arab students in Israel.19 Also, government funded pre-schools do not operate in Arab towns or villages, and more than half of the tens of thousands of Arab children with special needs are denied access to appropriate classes or schools.

I have first hand knowledge in the field of education for children with special needs. A child with special needs will never be denied access to an appropriate school, unless his parents are unaware of his problems or his rights.

Let's have a look at the site of Tira (an arab village in central Israel) town hall:

Package of services

- Settlement transportation system and especially for the children of special education

- Educational Psychological Service - An array of educational psychologists provide services to schools, students and parents regarding the problems that arise functioning of students in educational frameworks.

- Registration for kindergarten and pre-kindergarten mandatory.

Special education (with transportation system free of charge, paid for by the government) - check.
Educational services outside school - check.
Government funded pre-school education (private institutions are not mandatory) - check.

Source (I used Google translate):
http://www.tira.muni.il/edu/Pages/default.aspx

As I said, the canadians lie.

As for Adalah, they're like Wiki - totally non reliable.

Right to private property should be absolute, is that what you're saying?

Why would a socialist government produce that kind of right-wing law? My god, listen to yourself.

Also obviously state land should be leased/sold to those that need it. A working-class Israeli Arab in a village that doesn't want to move out or what have you, why should they get land instead of middle-class professionals or what have you? Remember a society had the built up virtually from scratch.

There are several problems with arabs being permitted to expand their villages, versus jews not being permitted to do the same on the ground that building for jews only discriminate against arabs.

The obvous problem is discrimination - arabs should be permitted what jews should not.

The second problem, less obvious, is ghettoization. Again, promoted for arabs, forbidden for jews.

I'd like to have the above issues clarified. They're very much on topic, since the attitudes of the two major components of the israeli society - jews and arabs - toward each other depend on the mentality behind the different views on how arabs should be treated versus how jews should be treated.

[wat0n]

First, you bring a quote from Kimmerling claiming that the basic laws of Israel discriminate against arabs (how exactly, I wonder).

Then, you bring a quote from a Haaretz article featuring Attorney General Menachem Mazuz with the astounding declaration that JNF leasing land to jews only through ILA is breaking the basic laws of Israel.

Well, if the basic laws discriminate, as Kimmerling claims, why would an Attorney General of Israel declare that JNF actions would be indefensible in a court of law charged with upholding the basic laws of Israel?

Indeed, that's one question that arises naturally from Mazuz's decision not to contest the lawsuit. Of course it would also be useful to consider why Mazuz held that the policy was indefensible in a court of law, particularly the obvious precedent in the Katzir ruling of 2000.

40. In this situation, out of a desire to take all of these factors and difficulties into account, and in order to reach an appropriate balance, we have decided to make the order nisi absolute, in the following manner:

A. We declare that the State was not permitted, by law, to allocate state land to the Jewish Agency, for the purpose of establishing the communal settlement of Katzir on the basis of discrimination between Jews and non-Jews.

B. It is incumbent upon the State to consider the petitioners’ request to purchase for themselves a parcel of land in the settlement of Katzir for the purpose of building their home, and this on the basis of the principle of equality, and taking into consideration factors relevant to the matter-- including the factors which relate to the Agency and the current residents of Katzir –and including the legal difficulties entailed in this matter. On the basis of these considerations, the State must decide, with appropriate speed, whether it can enable the petitioners, within the framework of the law, to build a house for themselves within the bounds of the Katzir communal settlement.

And just in case certain posters may try to selectively read from paragraph 40 (like by ignoring subparagraph A or the fact that it is an order nisi absolute):

Held: The Court held that the principle of equality is one of the foundational principles of the State of Israel. It applies to all actions of every government authority. The Court held that the policy constituted unlawful discrimination on the basis of nationality. The Court held that the fact that the settlement was built through the Jewish Agency for Israel could not legitimize such discrimination.

Now, back to the topic at hand: Given that the population seems to be evenly divided on the matter (considering sampling error), it was warranted for the Pew survey to have asked more questions on the matter, such as: Which Arabs should be expelled? All of them? Non-citizens only? Just those who have engaged in violence against Israelis?

[danholo]

Israeli democracy seems to only be for Jews and not for their Arab brothers. This is of course because they are unrepentantly racist and xenophobic.

I think the problem should be viewed form a broader spectrum - the failure of a 'liberal-democratic' system based on a European model. The ideal of Zionism was, of course, to emulate European countries. For about 20 years it worked quite well when Israel was not occupying neighboring territories and its population was not so multitiered: European and Middle Eastern Jews and largely non-religious with a smaller non-galvanized Arab minority. Now the Jewish population is much more mixed with huge conservative segments (especially the religious) and another completely different nationality (the Arabs/Palestinians). Currently we see the problem where ideology and tribal ties trump (no pun intended) liberal-democratic values. "Liberal-democratic" values only work when ideology is homogeneous in society and tribal values and connections are squashed - or reduced to only a superficial trait.

These are only some initial cursory thoughts, though, so there might be more to it - or completely the opposite.

[Heinie]

... The ideal of Zionism was, of course, to emulate European countries. For about 20 years it worked quite well when Israel was not occupying neighboring territories and its population was not so multitiered ...

It certainly emulates the Nürnberg Laws which worked quite well until Germany began occupying neighboring countries.