[skinster]

My mother taught me to love all equally, thank you for asking.

[wat0n]

So, she didn't teach you Middle Eastern history I see.

[QatzelOk]

Dear Entangling Alliance,

Congratuations on doing it again. On bringing down business-dominated societies by entangling their corrupt mafia-ridden governments in foreign wars of plunder and religious-thrill-seeking (Yee-haw, God's Country!)

[Atlantis]

Indeed, and its not because they're stupid it because the west takes a dump on them every few years, thus preventing them with dealing with their internal issues properly.

They would be a dump even without Western interventions, not because they "are stupid" as individuals, but because their society is stupid, i.e., it does not promote stable and prosperous conditions.

I've heard of your European partnership. Even inside the union European countries seem to get their kicks for subjugating other countries, Greece a living example.

There is no arguing with the mad rantings of the lunatic fringe. Greece would be fine under an EU partnership program or even as an EU member without the euro, even though corruption is at 3rd world level. Greece cheated its way into the euro to promptly cause the euro crisis. How is that "subjugation"? Or do you mean Greece subjugated the EU?

The partnership program is for countries that don't qualify for membership. It is the logical way of managing relations with neighboring countries. Whether or not a partnership is beneficial depends entirely on how it is implemented and on the will to cooperate on both sides.

the west can't seem to get enough of the 3rd world, there is a long history Western intervention, both economic and military, and it always ends badly for us.

a) As I said before, I have always opposed Western interventions because without it we wouldn't have all these problems. Most of all, we wouldn't have the problem with Israel because Israel wouldn't exist without British imperialism.

b) Apart from the British (and to a lesser extend the French) there are 40 odd countries in Europe which don't have any colonial ambitions. To accuse every Western country of interfering in the 3rd world is just silly.

c) If you consider the mere fact of being part of the global market economy a crime, then Israel and all other countries (with the possible exception of NK and Korea) are guilty of the same crime.

d) Intervention is by no means a Western specialty. Non-Western countries will interfere to cause a holy mess if they only get half a chance. Turkish hegemonic ambition has had a devastating effect on Syria. But I guess you would approve of that sort of intervention.

Look, you've got all of these refugees for example. Not only are they way cooler than the lot of you, but they can potentially divert attention from real internal European issues perhaps indefinitely.

What kind of problems are we talking about here? Too much peace? Too much prosperity? Too many goods to consume? Yeah, that's real bad. As far as I can see, the refugees and jihadists coming with them are by far the biggest problem.

I don't know if your getting this: we want that status! It splits my people into two inpotent halves, one feeling pretty good with itself and maintaining the occupation, and the other either cynical and apathetic

No, I don't get this. What you are describing sounds like a recipe for social disruption and permanent conflict. It is certainly not the kind of society I would want to be part of or even associate with from afar.

The US might be vile but not stupid.

We'll have to disagree on this. The US is quite clearly stupid, as a society.

My point is not that everything the West does in the 3rd world is shit (just most of it). I'm calling you to try understanding the powers working inside your own county and in the 3rd wotry before supporting any shit your countries throw at us.

I already showed above that your generalization about "the West" is meaningless. Moreover, it is completely beside the point. We are not talking about British imperialism that led to the creation of Israel, but about a private initiative of "well-meaning" citizens. The two have nothing in common.

A citizen’s boycott of Israeli goods reaching 10 or 20% of consumers could have an effect, but it is unlikely to even reach 1%. And there is no question of international sanctions, which the US ("the West") would not permit anyways.

An Arab/Muslim boycott if implemented consistently could however have a substantial impact. If contracts in the Muslim/Arab world were to be awarded only to companies not trading with Israel, your country would be in serious trouble. But as I said, the Arabs are unlikely to get their act together. So, you don't have much to worry about.

[Rich]

We see the most terrible things going on in Syria just across the border. Do the lefties care about these terrible crimes? Its not like we're saying what about something that happened 800 years ago. We're talking about terrible atrocities, terrible barbarisms right now and just a matter of miles from the Israeli border. Why are they not calling for boycott of Saudi, Turkey and Qatar the countries that are most behind the Sunni Arab Muslim terrorist of ISIS, Al Nusra and other less well known Sunni Arab Muslim terrorist groups?

[Azure Angel]

We see the most terrible things going on in Syria just across the border. Do the lefties care about these terrible crimes? Its not like we're saying what about something that happened 800 years ago. We're talking about terrible atrocities, terrible barbarisms right now and just a matter of miles form the Israeli border. Why are they not calling for boycott of Saudi, Turkey and Qatar the countries that are most behind the Sunni Arab Muslim terrorist of ISIS Al Nusra and other less well known Sunni Arab Muslim terrorist groups.

Truth.

[wat0n]

An Arab/Muslim boycott if implemented consistently could however have a substantial impact. If contracts in the Muslim/Arab world were to be awarded only to companies not trading with Israel, your country would be in serious trouble. But as I said, the Arabs are unlikely to get their act together. So, you don't have much to worry about.

You mean like until the 90s?

[The Awakener]

But why don't you do some explaining, starting for why were Jews trated as second-class dhimmis throughout the Islamic world?

That is far from globally true. There were always tensions, but in most of the Arab world Jews were treated with respect, at times better that other minorities. It was only with the landing of the European Jews, and the subsequent creation of the state of Israel, that the relations took a drastic turn for the worst.

Trying to paint Islam as historically oppesed to Judaism is moranic. All of the Arabic world combined didn't kill nearly as many Jews as the average European country, not to mention a said Reich. If anything Christianity should be considered Israel's historical enemy .

Ask Jews who were born in Arabic countries. My grandmother always said she liked Arabs better than Israelis.

They would be a dump even without Western interventions, not because they "are stupid" as individuals, but because their society is stupid, i.e., it does not promote stable and prosperous conditions.

And this is related to its political situation, which was subject to constant economic and military intervention. This can go on forever.

Greece would be fine under an EU partnership program or even as an EU member without the euro, even though corruption is at 3rd world level. Greece cheated its way into the euro to promptly cause the euro crisis. How is that "subjugation"? Or do you mean Greece subjugated the EU?

I was referring to how your German banks and financial institutions intentionally mismanaged the economy of the hardest working people in Europe to a state of collapse, and offered to 'save' them with a destructive austerity program that will ensure their gentrification. But this is all beside the point, which is that I don't trust your shit and no middle easterner should.

b) Apart from the British (and to a lesser extend the French)

And Spain. And Portugal. And Germany made no effort hiding it wanted some too, look up World War I. and that not even counting the imperialism of the United States or the USSR (which you can say doesn't count). Or modern economic imperislism, which doesn't even work in the confines of countries.

there are 40 odd countries in Europe which don't have any colonial ambitions. To accuse every Western country of interfering in the 3rd world is just silly.

It's not just a matter if who has colonies. Its a sort of Master mentality, which has plagued the Occident for centuries. As Edward Said wrote, the Occident needs the Orient for it's self definition, both as an 'Other' and as an 'Inferior'. Knowing that there are some barbaric others (or as you put it 'stupid society' ) out there is part of Europe's cultural definition. This colonial mindset supports the colonial interests of the Western bourgeoisie, which range from exploiting natural resources, creating cheap labour and expanding the military industry to creating false threats to prevent the workers from understanding thier situation (as you exampled so well).

If you consider the mere fact of being part of the global market economy a crime, then Israel and all other countries (with the possible exception of NK and Korea) are guilty of the same crime.

I might, but that is beside the point. But the bigger problem is what are the power relations within the global economy and how they affect the 3rd world.

Intervention is by no means a Western specialty. Non-Western countries will interfere to cause a holy mess if they only get half a chance.

No doubt. And police officers can beat white people to death for no good reason, and that would be a problem too. But its different when its a black man, and there is a difference between Western intervention and internal struggles, because of the power relations.

But I guess you would approve of that sort of intervention.

Far from it, and partly because I believe it serves Western interests.

What kind of problems are we talking about here? Too much peace? Too much prosperity? Too many goods to consume? Yeah, that's real bad. As far as I can see, the refugees and jihadists coming with them are by far the biggest problem.

I rest my case.

What you are describing sounds like a recipe for social disruption and permanent conflict.

Exactly. That's the entire purpose.

It is certainly not the kind of society I would want to be part of or even associate with from afar.

Me neither. Working on it, only wish international boycotts would stop helping the wrong side.

We'll have to disagree on this. The US is quite clearly stupid, as a society.

Well that must mean the rest of us are really stupid, seeing as they seem to be completing most of their goals in the ME.

but about a private initiative of "well-meaning" citizens.

Supported by less 'well-meaning' corporations, that have colonial interests in the ME.

[wat0n]

That is far from globally true. There were always tensions, but in most of the Arab world Jews were treated with respect, at times better that other minorities. It was only with the landing of the European Jews, and the subsequent creation of the state of Israel, that the relations took a drastic turn for the worst.

Well, that depends on how you define "respect". Their inferior legal status under the Qu'ran is not under dispute, even if the Qu'ran itself also commands Muslims to show tolerance and basic respect to the Peoples of the Book. Peoples from other religions had a much, much worse choice.

Trying to paint Islam as historically oppesed to Judaism is moranic.

Oh, as long as the Jews accept their inferior status Islam has no real problem with Judaism.

All of the Arabic world combined didn't kill nearly as many Jews as the average European country, not to mention a said Reich. If anything Christianity should be considered Israel's historical enemy .

Is that an argument? The standard we should expect from the contemporary Islamic world is so low that we should not criticize them when they are better than the Nazis or medieval Europe?

That argument made sense 500 years ago, not now.

Ask Jews who were born in Arabic countries. My grandmother always said she liked Arabs better than Israelis.

Yeah, and for every grandmother of yours I can find at least another who says the opposite. There is a reason for Mizrahim to vote for Likud.

[The Awakener]

Oh, as long as the Jews accept their inferior status Islam has no real problem with Judaism.

My point stands. There were no significant historical hostilities.

Is that an argument? The standard we should expect from the contemporary Islamic world is so low that we should not criticize them when they are better than the Nazis or medieval Europe?

That argument made sense 500 years ago, not now.

I'm neither making an argument regarding the justification if the situation, nor referring to contemporary Islamic countries. I just wanted to point out the absurdity of claiming the conflict originated from religious hostility.

Yeah, and for every grandmother of yours I can find at least another who says the opposite.

If you know of such stories I'd be genuinely interested, the history of Arabic Jews is important to me. But I doubt you will, expect for events like the Farhud which happened after the arrival of European Jews to Israel.

There is a reason for Mizrahim to vote for Likud.

And it is that the labour party treated them like absolute shit from day one. My great-grandfather cursed Ben Gurion until the day he died. The Likud at least spat in their direction. But that's a different discussion.

[wat0n]

My point stands. There were no significant historical hostilities.

So leaving a group within the population as second-class citizens is not a "significant historical hostility"?

I'm neither making an argument regarding the justification if the situation, nor referring to contemporary Islamic countries. I just wanted to point out the absurdity of claiming the conflict originated from religious hostility.

Why would it be an absurdity to say that such an inferior status under Islam played a role in causing the violence of the Arab Israeli conflict?

If you know of such stories I'd be genuinely interested, the history of Arabic Jews is important to me. But I doubt you will, expect for events like the Farhud which happened after the arrival of European Jews to Israel.

It's nice that you mention the Farhud, as it is an example of what I was talking about.

But if you want to go farther back in time, perhaps because it is somehow totally reasonable for Iraqi Arab Nazi sympathizers to kill Iraqi Jews over British policy in Palestine, to a time before our grandparents were alive, we can. It's not too hard to find instances of accusations of Jews stealing Christian or Muslim children to use their blood to make matzah in the Muslim world that predate modern Zionism.

And it is that the labour party treated them like absolute shit from day one. My great-grandfather cursed Ben Gurion until the day he died. The Likud at least spat in their direction. But that's a different discussion.

And because many lost their property as a result of the founding of Israel.

[Buzz62]

I salute this French telecom company.
Whether is has any impact or not will be debatable, but...It has induced or dragged-out...the typical responses from both sides.

Fact is...people...in general...don't like to see other people being trodden upon.
So the French bleeding heart crew would be all for this sort of response to the telecom.
Also, the French have quite a few Arab Muslim people within France.
Something they likely have to consider.

As for the Israelis...I'd have to guess that there are some who would actually applaud the telecom for their decision.
However...most will not.
Most will engage in the usual "cat-calls" that make most of us puke with disgust every time we have to be assaulted by such nonsense.
Some...will try to deflect by trying...very much in vain mind you...to get people to focus on "other nations" rather that Israel.

In the end...nothing substantial gets done, and Israel continues to exist as an apartheid state with the blessing of the USA.

For now...

[skinster]

Buzz, there are Israelis within the country who support the boycott movement. The group is called Boycott from Within.

My point stands. There were no significant historical hostilities.

Indeed. Alison Weir's book Against Our Better Judgement documents Zionist terrorism in ME countries in order to get Jews of those countries to live in Israel. waton as usual, presents the hasbara-version-of-events.


In other news, Israelis display their delusions: believing Israel's negative image abroad is because of the boycott, completely ignoring/forgetting why the boycott began. It's the occupation, stupid.

[wat0n]

Indeed. Alison Weir's book Against Our Better Judgement documents Zionist terrorism in ME countries in order to get Jews of those countries to live in Israel. waton as usual, presents the hasbara-version-of-events.

You mean, this Allison Weir? Why should I believe her?

Is she a renowned scholar on the matter? Or she actually works for a political organization that is the anti-Israel equivalent of CAMERA or any of the other anti-Zionist groups?

In other news, Israelis display their delusions: believing Israel's negative image abroad is because of the boycott, completely ignoring/forgetting why the boycott began. It's the occupation, stupid.

The article doesn't say that

[Buzz62]

Buzz, there are Israelis within the country who support the boycott movement. The group is called Boycott from Within.

Hadn't I said that?

As for the Israelis...I'd have to guess that there are some who would actually applaud the telecom for their decision.

Yup...

waton...
You shouldn't believe her. You should continue to "fight the good fight" for Israel...from WAY OUTSIDE of Israel...
You know...where the French companies don't boycott...

You do have one thing quite correct skinster...it IS the occupation.
And now that "nutty-yahoo" has a majority, it will continue to be the occupation.
And the French and the rest of Europe will continue to distance themselves from Israel.
Public opinion in the USA and Canada will continue to drop.
While this happens, battle-weary USA will refuse to get dragged into a full-scale war in the ME.
This will soon leave Israel with its "occupation" hanging out for all to watch and enjoy.

Can you guess where this inevitable chain of events leads to?
Bet ya can...

[wat0n]

waton...
You shouldn't believe her. You should continue to "fight the good fight" for Israel...from WAY OUTSIDE of Israel...
You know...where the French companies don't boycott...

Will you continue your crusade against Israel and Holocaust denial comfy from Canada or you'll move to Israel and see how you fare?

In any event, the CEO from Orange said the company wasn't boycotting or even leaving Israel. He's completely backtracking now.

[Buzz62]

Will you continue your crusade against Israel and Holocaust denial comfy from Canada or you'll move to Israel and see how you fare?

Now why on Earth should I even consider moving to an openly apartheid state?
But you are correct about 1 thing...my "crusade" will continue...even if I do take a break here and there.
But you and many others like to frame my "crusade" as anti-semitic (which is a GROSS misnomer but...)...when its actually a whole-hearted hatred for the TRUE cause of this mess.

ZIONISM!!!

[skinster]

The article doesn't say that

From the article:

According to the report's findings, the Jewish public is aware of the deterioration that has occurred in Israel’s international status, which seems to stem from the intensification of voices calling to boycott Israel and its institutions.

In related news:

Against 'hasbara': Explaining ourselves to death

The Israeli obsession with showing ‘our side’ of the story not only guzzles financial and human resources — it is a conscious attempt to distract the world from policies of occupation.

[wat0n]

Now why on Earth should I even consider moving to an openly apartheid state?
But you are correct about 1 thing...my "crusade" will continue...even if I do take a break here and there.

But who's asking you to move to an Apartheid state? I'm asking if you'd move to Israel.

But you and many others like to frame my "crusade" as anti-semitic (which is a GROSS misnomer but...)...when its actually a whole-hearted hatred for the TRUE cause of this mess.

ZIONISM!!!

Oh, that comes from your past Holocaust denial. That naturally leads one to wonder what actually motivates your stance on Israel.

From the article:

Does it say that Israelis believe that the deterioration of their country's international status comes from BDS or it's an opinion by the article's writer? I'm actually starting to wonder if you actually read your sources or not.

The Israeli obsession with showing ‘our side’ of the story not only guzzles financial and human resources — it is a conscious attempt to distract the world from policies of occupation.

Why shouldn't Israelis be free of telling their narrative (or engage in propaganda, there's not practical difference between both)? Pro-Palestinian activists do, so I don't see why pro-Israel ones shouldn't. That's simply another extension of the conflict, though.

If anything, the same allegations made in the article easily apply to the Palestinians as well - it's not like BDS or any similar movements have anything to offer with regards to building any sort of Palestinian reconciliation, let alone governance. The mantras are usually "if Israel ceased to exist, Palestine would be free and prosperous" or "If the occupation ended, Palestine would be free and prosperous" even though it is far from clear this would be the case. I doubt they'd still care about the Palestinians in either case as well.

[Rich]

This is absurd. Name one ethnosupremacist European state, comparable to Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians.

Ukraine and Russia are warming up. But look back and in the twentieth century Germany, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia just for starters were engaged in huge levels of ethnic violence. Peace only ensued because Stalin enforced massive levels of ethnic cleansing which established final borders and ethnically homogeneous nation states in central Europe. We saw the result in Yugoslavia where Stalin didn't get to tidy everything up.

The Jews wanted their own state, I don't see why they should be demonised just because they were very late in the game of Nation State creation. Britain doesn't act the way Israel does because it hasn't got huge numbers of people inside and out who want to see its destruction like Israel has. Even the relative minor conflict with Irish Republicans caused the suspension of Liberal Democratic norms.