[Verv]

First I want to say that I have not been interested in political discussion particularly since a week or so after the October 7th incident. I found that ... in my real life social circles... the discussions were too intense and terrible.

I also felt that I am someone who has a lot of proximity to conservative Christians that support Israel, and I just needed to be there trying to talk these people in particular... and that was a burden. I have learned to be pro-Palestine, without any equivocation on that, and I think that there are complex machinations in the Western world to convince us to go against the values to support a colonial state by preying on extremely pessimistic views of humanity and reality about how conflict is inevitable, and more cruelly, viewing Muslims in specific and Middle Easterners in general as just a few steps above animals - people who need to be managed.

I just have been reflecting a lot on that and been tied up with other debates.

I've actually since left a group that took up a lot of my time over how terrible the situation was.

@Potemkin , @Godstud , @Verv , @Political Interest :

Now that I've focused in on the " spell" so to speak, it seems obvious if only to me how Rene Decartes and his reign over Modernity-the spell- can or is being broken is by encountering his fear of a particular " Monster": his " evil demon" who could just possibly be messing with Decartes (and everyone else's) perception that the only being we can be sure exists is us, that matter is real and supra substantial, self subsistant, and that we are a combination of a localized but disembodied mind that only thinks, combined somehow with a material machine body that only moves and works because of that thinking.

In short, that it's possible to Decartes and thus modern western man, that an all powerful " evil demon" could be entirely controlling our awareness and perception of reality. A real Terror perhaps symbolized by in lampoon by Lovecraft and his horrific " Old Ones".

Because George Berkeley comes around and basically says ( to the horror and incomprehensible fear of modern Western man) that God Is Decartes " Evil Demon" Who is doing precisely that "deception" :

Surely Decartes was really an Atheist and an Materialist.

Now, Berkeley says much more than what I've mentioned, in essence , but still the basic aim of his is to show our radical contingency as God's creatures.

Cartesian" rational" perception starting from a solipsistic surety of our own existence because we think, cannot be a real basis for understanding reality, from self outwards atowards the cosmos.

It's not that God is " messing with us", we really can and should trust our senses for the most part, but because of sin we fall into the Cartesian Revolution error and instead enshrine our personal God, who William Blake called " Urizen": "your Reason. " We reason ourselves into every error in existence, and especially about consciousness and the nature of the material universe.

This spell empowers all the others in the West. In the East, not so much. It is broken by following it's opposite.

I think that the reason they believe this might be an actual psychological disorder - an inclination toward depression or such cynical & pessimistic rationalism that they think maybe this is all from the devil.

Yet, I know people who grew up in much worse circumstances than me who see life as a miracle, regardless. Indeed, even many atheists have a generally positive view of life (though I would argue that a lot of them do get pessimistic)...

Coming home each night to a beautiful little daughter who has unconditional love for me and joy when I return really shows that life is the best!

... How would a demon be an architect of this reality?

You would have to come up with a strange set of circumstances to say that the character of the universe's architect is fundamentally evil... Because I am aware that there are men and women living on the edge of death in extreme poverty that know the joys of having beautiful, beautiful children.

Walking for hours each day to get water and food and sleeping with a half-full stomach and doing it again, each day, but with a child, in whom you have great hope and from which you receive much joy, is a very pleasant thing simply because of the child. Life can never be a mistake. It's an affiramtion of the goodness of the universe - and in each child you can see the unfettered joy and pure spirit of God manifested.

But yes, it is possible to forget about this, or ignore it, when you have clinical depression. And that's OK. Depressed people offer to us a perspective worth consideration and are loved by God.

[Tainari88]

First I want to say that I have not been interested in political discussion particularly since a week or so after the October 7th incident. I found that ... in my real life social circles... the discussions were too intense and terrible.

I also felt that I am someone who has a lot of proximity to conservative Christians that support Israel, and I just needed to be there trying to talk these people in particular... and that was a burden. I have learned to be pro-Palestine, without any equivocation on that, and I think that there are complex machinations in the Western world to convince us to go against the values to support a colonial state by preying on extremely pessimistic views of humanity and reality about how conflict is inevitable, and more cruelly, viewing Muslims in specific and Middle Easterners in general as just a few steps above animals - people who need to be managed.

I just have been reflecting a lot on that and been tied up with other debates.

I've actually since left a group that took up a lot of my time over how terrible the situation was.



I think that the reason they believe this might be an actual psychological disorder - an inclination toward depression or such cynical & pessimistic rationalism that they think maybe this is all from the devil.

Yet, I know people who grew up in much worse circumstances than me who see life as a miracle, regardless. Indeed, even many atheists have a generally positive view of life (though I would argue that a lot of them do get pessimistic)...

Coming home each night to a beautiful little daughter who has unconditional love for me and joy when I return really shows that life is the best!

... How would a demon be an architect of this reality?

You would have to come up with a strange set of circumstances to say that the character of the universe's architect is fundamentally evil... Because I am aware that there are men and women living on the edge of death in extreme poverty that know the joys of having beautiful, beautiful children.

Walking for hours each day to get water and food and sleeping with a half-full stomach and doing it again, each day, but with a child, in whom you have great hope and from which you receive much joy, is a very pleasant thing simply because of the child. Life can never be a mistake. It's an affiramtion of the goodness of the universe - and in each child you can see the unfettered joy and pure spirit of God manifested.

But yes, it is possible to forget about this, or ignore it, when you have clinical depression. And that's OK. Depressed people offer to us a perspective worth consideration and are loved by God.

@Verv I really appreciated and truly loved this piece you wrote.

I have never liked conservatism and still do not.

But, what you write here is what spirituality is about—loving and being loved.

Harming people is very wrong. Especially if it is intentional.

The best policy when dealing with human beings is to start off respectful and have a sense of empathy for their problems. Listening to those concerns and problems and then drawing on that sense of responsibility and empathy for solutions. With politics knowing the history and the context of a place is very important. Then formulating something that is not coercive but competent, well thought out and then consequential. As in following through. If you are not committed to that society? Then offer assistance and let them take the lead.

I think the problem with many issues in the world is a lack of humility and a lack of respect for what other people have had to go through.

Once, you understand that the role of religion should be about subjugating one's ego and being humble by the reality that all of us have to die and we have to end our journey on Earth. How do we end it? Leaving pain behind and resentment? Or love and respect and fondness in our wake....it is up to each of us to accomplish that.

Sometimes causing pain to others is inevitable. But if they can forgive us and let that resentment and anger go and just think about the good times and the good parts of that relationship? The transcendence in this life is possible. A great thing.

I am glad you adore your daughter. And she loves you. I loved my father deeply.

I am realizing that not all daughters are that lucky to have a father care and love them deeply. And for them to share their entire lives with their daughters. That is special. Treasure that always Verv. It is a great gift.

[annatar1914]

@Verv and @Tainari88 :

Well said, God is indeed good, by definition, even if we don't always understand His ways.

As for the issue of Palestine, it's been harder for me to accept, although I do because it is part of a larger conflict. Indeed the Ukrainian Conflict is ultimately of greater world historical importance than the clash between Zionism and Palestine/Islam.

[Tainari88]

@Verv and @Tainari88 :

Well said, God is indeed good, by definition, even if we don't always understand His ways.

As for the issue of Palestine, it's been harder for me to accept, although I do because it is part of a larger conflict. Indeed the Ukrainian Conflict is ultimately of greater world historical importance than the clash between Zionism and Palestine/Islam.

These conflicts have to do with a lack of acknowledgement of the existence of other people with other beliefs and with other ways of thinking. If we want a more peaceful world? We are going to have to learn how to not be attached to

mundane power and control of others.

That is why I am totally against imperialism. The imperialist justifies dehumanizing the people they invade, go to war against, and take over, with the false belief that they are the better version of humanity and they have more virtues, and they are above the people they conquer. It is a form of hubris and arrogance, and as we know arrogance and lack of humility is the seed of sin or lies. The core of spirituality that is truthful is the absence of arrogance and the truth of humility in spirit. Imperialism will always be the opposite of spirituality.

To be an imperialist you have to believe wholeheartedly that the other people whom you hate or want to dehumanize are not your equals and are your inferiors. It would be much better for all these situations if the imperialist were more realistic. I would say--we are here because we are greedy, we need your land to watch this other powerful nation that we are competing against for ruling the world, we are in debt and stealing your resources and using cheap labor is a way for us to pay it back without having to face hardship. Yes, we are selfish and wrong and immoral. But we are willing to do this because we can. And since you are in a weaker position? We have that need. Accept it.

If they were that honest there is room for talking really. For even resolving the conflict. What makes things really tough to resolve are the lies involved in all this immoral behavior. Where they start believing their own lies and myths. Where they really think the other people they exploit and hurt are not as human as they are.

Reality comes along eventually and when it becomes intolerable for the imperialist to remain steeped in their own lies and myths they have to face reality. By then? There is a lot of pain, hurt, hatred and resentment that has accumulated and to stop the violence in all of it is very hard to do.

It is much better to be honest in the ugliness of the initial thoughts. If you externalize it? You got a shot at reconciliation. But if you lie about the truthful motivations behind the immorality and lack of empathy? It aggravates the results and outcomes terribly.

That is why they say the Devil is the father of all lies. Because the lies keep reconciliation, and peace and empathy from having enough space to work and resolve.

[annatar1914]

@Tainari88 , @Verv ,

@Potemkin , @Godstud ,
@Political Interest :

Tonight I needed eyewash, and more besides. Words fail me: Nausea, Poshlost.

Friend of mine showed me this movie: over a week since my father died and I could use the company, but I left this before it finished:

I went home and watched the " Gospel of John " instead:

And played with my father's dog, who is grieving too. Time better spent.

My father was a complicated man, and very much a child of his times. But I recall him in the 1970s walking us children out of a movie theater if there was something showing that was too much for us...

Today we have a nihilistic tidal wave of Satanic filth assaulting all mankind. And children are not allowed to be children hardly at all.

In his own way my father would try at times to protect me. In recent years I had to protect him. It's a natural reaction.

But beware: there will be a " conservatism" arising in reaction in the West that will be more seductive and more vile in a way than the open sewer paradigm that holds it's grip now

[Tainari88]

@annatar1914 the issue is this with the evangelical white Christian conservatives:

I am more direct. Again, without humility, spirituality becomes racism, fantasyland, and myth. Theocracy at its worst. They are into power and loss of power. Trump promises them political power. They betray everything that is truly Christ-like.

I have absolute disdain for such Christians Annatar1914. I have met quite a few in Oklahoma. Most of them are super IGNORANT and uneducated and the only thing they follow is some doctrines based on exceptional positions in the world. It is about authoritarianism.

For me they do not understand that you either know how to love others who are truly different than you are or you do not. If you do not? You are not spiritual. You are just a power-seeking ignorant religious fanatic no different than the Muslim extremists they detest. They are the same in their intolerant brains.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914 the issue is this with the evangelical white Christian conservatives:

I am more direct. Again, without humility, spirituality becomes racism, fantasyland, and myth. Theocracy at its worst. They are into power and loss of power. Trump promises them political power. They betray everything that is truly Christ-like.

I have absolute disdain for such Christians Annatar1914. I have met quite a few in Oklahoma. Most of them are super IGNORANT and uneducated and the only thing they follow is some doctrines based on exceptional positions in the world. It is about authoritarianism.

For me they do not understand that you either know how to love others who are truly different than you are or you do not. If you do not? You are not spiritual. You are just a power-seeking ignorant religious fanatic no different than the Muslim extremists they detest. They are the same in their intolerant brains.

@Tainari88 :

They are of the sort who are both ungovernable and incapable of running government. I used to be amazed at them when they would talk like Ayn Rand when it came to their individual persons but absolute Statists when it came to the lives of other people.

[Potemkin]

@Tainari88 :

They are of the sort who are both ungovernable and incapable of running government. I used to be amazed at them when they would talk like Ayn Rand when it came to their individual persons but absolute Statists when it came to the lives of other people.

Right Libertarians seem to want freedom for themselves and slavery for everyone else. Many of them openly talk about wanting a neo-feudal social and economic system - with themselves as the aristocracy, of course. This apparent contradiction should not surprise us, of course - individualism, if pressed far enough, becomes the tyranny of one man over all others. As the ancient Greeks used to say of the Persian Empire - the King of Kings was the only free man in the Empire, and everyone else, without exception, were his slaves. This is what every Libertarian wants for himself - ultimate freedom, which can only come from ultimate slavery for everyone else in society.

[annatar1914]

Right Libertarians seem to want freedom for themselves and slavery for everyone else. Many of them openly talk about wanting a neo-feudal social and economic system - with themselves as the aristocracy, of course. This apparent contradiction should not surprise us, of course - individualism, if pressed far enough, becomes the tyranny of one man over all others. As the ancient Greeks used to say of the Persian Empire - the King of Kings was the only free man in the Empire, and everyone else, without exception, were his slaves. This is what every Libertarian wants for himself - ultimate freedom, which can only come from ultimate slavery for everyone else in society.

@Potemkin :

I think it was Manly P. Hall who wrote of Monarchs as being crowned Anarchists, or something like that....

It goes back to the fundamental rebellion at the origin of Western Civilization, really.

But does that then make me a hypocrite for believing in Revolution and Republics, while agreeing with Scripture that: " It is as the sin of witchcraft to rebel, and as idolatry to refuse to obey" ? No, I don't think so. " It is better to obey God than it is to obey man".

I can't think of a revolution that didn't begin as set to establish a republic against traitors, usurpers, with tyrants essentially at war against their own subjects, revolution against tyrants who were not first themselves in rebellion against God and man alike.

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Verv , @Godstud, @Political Interest :

I was reminded of the days that are coming, by this short:

https://youtube.com/shorts/DToAV7phnFU? ... oXQw1o5ZGS


But then, they knew themselves as ravening Lions and Wolves, and were known as such by others, and there was no hypocrisy or dissimulation about them either. And the Faith of the God of Israel condemned them to the Fire without hesitations or reservations. The Rich and Powerful, the Beautiful and the Strong, are guilty and the
Wicked by definition because they are in the camp of Achilles, and themselves feel no real guilt:

https://youtube.com/shorts/RqzEVwho3Ok? ... S1Eg_huJma

And so it will return to be this way again soon, in the post Modern world. Because this IS the natural way of things, in this fallen world:

I am thus reminded of the Passion of the Christ and the confrontation between Our Lord and the Roman Governor Pilate, which as I'll soon examine more deeply was a demonstration between two very different ways of life.

[Verv]

I have long thought that the Nietzschean push is truly anti-Christian, and all the German enlightenment stuff can be garbage.

Christianity is fully rational. This is not the same as being 100% empiricists - rationality has to be treated as something that does not necessarily always lead to objective truth, since there is always room for debate, but it has to be treated as something that is a key characteristic of men... The relationship that guys like Nietzsche have is the subversion of reason and the appeal to some more natural, vital spirit that is supposed to animate everything, and this is really just the desire to say see that? Strong! Me like strong! Strong must win, you got that?!

And this is why Bronze Age Pervert was so thoroughly dragged after the October 7th attacks: he wants a resurrection of the powerful, natural aristocrats taking by force what is theirs and forming a new oligarchy that stands apart from the Western democratic norms that he views as transgressive towards themselves... But, of course, he sides with the Western, pro-Zionist order, and is against brown people when they try to do something rugged, masculine, and decidedly Bronze Age.

Then it is time to appeal to reason...

But when the IDF launches a disproportionate response, we are back to how strength and will itself are enough of an argument...

Ummm, what you say here, is very interesting and powerful... That the pagans like Achilles were cast deep into the pits of hell because they lived in a society that valued this sort of garbage... But I think there is a distinction here, because opposite of Achilles was the man who asked to be buried... But this isn't exactly correct:

{Hector} “No longer, son of Peleus, will I flee from thee, as before I thrice fled around the great city of Priam, nor ever had the heart to abide thy onset; but now again my spirit biddeth me stand and face thee, whether I slay or be slain. But come hither, let us call the gods to witness, for they shall be the best [255] witnesses and guardians of our covenant: I will do unto thee no foul despite, if Zeus grant me strength to outstay thee, and I take thy life; but when I have stripped from thee thy glorious armour, Achilles, I will give thy dead body back to the Achaeans; and so too do thou.”

{Achilles}[260] Then with an angry glance from beneath his brows spake unto him Achilles, swift of foot: “Hector, talk not to me, thou madman, of covenants. As between lions and men there are no oaths of faith, nor do wolves and lambs have hearts of concord but are evil-minded continually one against the other, [265] even so is it not possible for thee and me to be friends, neither shall there be oaths between us till one or the other shall have fallen, and glutted with his blood Ares, the warrior with tough shield of hide. Bethink thee of all manner of valour: now in good sooth it behoveth thee to quit thee as a spearman and a dauntless warrior. No more is there any escape for thee, but forthwith shall Pallas Athene

So, Hector is simply saying the winner should allow the other to be returned to their side for burial.

Achilles is like no, I am a lion, yuo are a mere man. Plus I have a lot of FEEELS...

So Achilles kills Hector, and he says:

Then fell he in the dust, [330] and goodly Achilles exulted over him;“Hector, thou thoughtest, I ween, whilst thou wast spoiling Patroclus, that thou wouldest be safe, and hadst no thought of me that was afar, thou fool. Far from him a helper, mightier far, was left behind at the hollow ships, [335] even I, that have loosed thy knees. Thee shall dogs and birds rend in unseemly wise, but to him shall the Achaeans give burial.”

Hector isn't even fully dead, and he asks Achilles to not let him be eaten by dogs...

Achilles gives this reply:

“Implore me not, dog, by knees or parents. Would that in any wise wrath and fury might bid me carve thy flesh and myself eat it raw, because of what thou hast wrought, as surely as there lives no man that shall ward off the dogs from thy head; nay, not though they should bring hither and weigh out ransom ten-fold, aye, twenty-fold, [350] and should promise yet more; nay, not though Priam, son of Dardanus, should bid pay thy weight in gold; not even so shall thy queenly mother lay thee on a bier and make lament for thee, the son herself did bear, but dogs and birds shall devour thee utterly.”

It's so important to Achilles that Hector is eaten by dogs and carrion birds that he is willing to turn down riches - wow! THis is the part that makes Nietzsche's mustache spin, I'm sure.

And then Achilles proceeds to have Hector stripped of his armor and he drags him behind his chariot as he rides off:

ut come, singing our song of victory, ye sons of the Achaeans, let us go back to the hollow ships and bring thither this corpse. We have won us great glory; we have slain goodly Hector, to whom the Trojans made prayer throughout their city, as unto a god.” [395] He spake, and devised foul entreatment for goodly Hector. The tendons of both his feet behind he pierced from heel to ankle, and made fast therethrough thongs of oxhide, and bound them to his chariot, but left the head to trail. Then when he had mounted his car and had lifted therein the glorious armour, [400] he touched the horses with the lash to start thiem, and nothing loath the pair sped onward. And from Hector as he was dragged the dust rose up, and on either side his dark hair flowed outspread, and all in the dust lay the head that was before so fair; but now had Zeus given him over to his foes to suffer foul entreatment in his own native land.

All the Trojans are just gutted:

[405] So was his head all befouled with dust; but his mother tore her hair and from her flung far her gleaming veil and uttered a cry exceeding loud at sight of her son. And a piteous groan did his father utter, and around them the folk was holden of wailing and groaning throughout the city. [410] Most like to this was it as though all beetling Ilios were utterly burning with fire. And the folk had much ado to hold back the old man in his frenzy, fain as he was to go forth from the Dardanian gates. To all he made prayer, grovelling the while in the filth, [415] and calling on each man by name:“Withhold, my friends, and suffer me for all your love to go forth from the city alone, and hie me to the ships of the Achaeans. I will make prayer to yon ruthless man, yon worker of violence, if so be he may have shame before his fellows and have pity on my old age. [420] He too, I ween, hath a father such as I am, even Peleus, that begat him and reared him to be a bane to Trojans; but above all others hath he brought woe upon me, so many sons of mine hath he slain in their prime. Yet for them all I mourn not so much, despite my grief, [425] as for one only, sharp grief for whom will bring me down to the house of Hades—even for Hector. Ah, would he had died in my arms; then had we taken our fill of weeping and wailing, the mother that bare him to her sorrow, and myself.” So spake he weeping, and thereto the townsfolk added their laments. [430] And among the women of Troy Hecabe led the vehement lamentation: “My child, ah woe is me! How shall I live in my sore anguish, now thou art dead?—thou that wast my boast night and day in the city, and a blessing to all, both to the men and women of Troy throughout the town, who ever greeted thee as a god; [435] for verily thou wast to them a glory exceeding great, while yet thou livedst; but now death and fate are come upon thee.”

Source

It's a pretty dramatic episode.

It really makes Achilles seem like a bad guy, as Hector seemed willing to reach a deal that was respectful to the dead.

What a time to be alive - and what an irrational period to glorify: I like the barbaric says everyone who values honesty and hates hypocrisy, I think, but it is also the case that there can be times when the civilized act barbarically, and it is the barbarians who actually preserve some basic sense of honor,... As that seems to be what Hector has done here...

This whole post has now made me want to revisit the Iliad. It has been literally two decades since I've read it, I believe!

[annatar1914]

I have long thought that the Nietzschean push is truly anti-Christian, and all the German enlightenment stuff can be garbage.

Christianity is fully rational. This is not the same as being 100% empiricists - rationality has to be treated as something that does not necessarily always lead to objective truth, since there is always room for debate, but it has to be treated as something that is a key characteristic of men... The relationship that guys like Nietzsche have is the subversion of reason and the appeal to some more natural, vital spirit that is supposed to animate everything, and this is really just the desire to say see that? Strong! Me like strong! Strong must win, you got that?!

And this is why Bronze Age Pervert was so thoroughly dragged after the October 7th attacks: he wants a resurrection of the powerful, natural aristocrats taking by force what is theirs and forming a new oligarchy that stands apart from the Western democratic norms that he views as transgressive towards themselves... But, of course, he sides with the Western, pro-Zionist order, and is against brown people when they try to do something rugged, masculine, and decidedly Bronze Age.

Then it is time to appeal to reason...

But when the IDF launches a disproportionate response, we are back to how strength and will itself are enough of an argument...

Ummm, what you say here, is very interesting and powerful... That the pagans like Achilles were cast deep into the pits of hell because they lived in a society that valued this sort of garbage... But I think there is a distinction here, because opposite of Achilles was the man who asked to be buried... But this isn't exactly correct:



So, Hector is simply saying the winner should allow the other to be returned to their side for burial.

Achilles is like no, I am a lion, yuo are a mere man. Plus I have a lot of FEEELS...

So Achilles kills Hector, and he says:



Hector isn't even fully dead, and he asks Achilles to not let him be eaten by dogs...

Achilles gives this reply:



It's so important to Achilles that Hector is eaten by dogs and carrion birds that he is willing to turn down riches - wow! THis is the part that makes Nietzsche's mustache spin, I'm sure.

And then Achilles proceeds to have Hector stripped of his armor and he drags him behind his chariot as he rides off:



All the Trojans are just gutted:



Source

It's a pretty dramatic episode.

It really makes Achilles seem like a bad guy, as Hector seemed willing to reach a deal that was respectful to the dead.

What a time to be alive - and what an irrational period to glorify: I like the barbaric says everyone who values honesty and hates hypocrisy, I think, but it is also the case that there can be times when the civilized act barbarically, and it is the barbarians who actually preserve some basic sense of honor,... As that seems to be what Hector has done here...

This whole post has now made me want to revisit the Iliad. It has been literally two decades since I've read it, I believe!

@Verv :

Great post, my friend. I believe that the " Illiad" and the " Odyssey" constitute a kind of Greco Roman" Counter Bible" in distinction to the Israelite Word of God. Therin lies the truth of the world as it is in it's greatest and most glorious strivings, for all that's worth....

It's not like the prophets and inspired writers didn't know about the world either, and the " heroes of old, the men of renown", and the civilization that was in formation from their works and deeds. The Book of Wisdom writes of their core attitude:

" .... But let our strength be our norm of righteousness: for weakness proves itself useless..."

And They and the Israelites have been in conflict on every level, from the days of the invasion of Canaan, to Goliath, Alexander, to the wars of the Macabees, right up to today and the conflicts now.

The Giants are real.

[Verv]

I agree that we absolutely should try to be strong and fit - I think there really was a sense of frustration among less athletic, less strong boys back in the tribal communities because it was literally through the physical prowess and cunning of the tribe's men that they survived at all. There would be a real feeling that if I am not one of the best warriors who can win in combat, I let down my family and the whole tribe...

This is a basic, productive human emotion...

And it has a moral element: the man who got drunk and couldn't help with the kids the next day feels like a failure; the married man who finds himself accessing smut and committing onanism feels yucky even if it is the case that his marriage bed has been cold for years... and I think this is also all about moral strength - the hardest kind of strength! - and that non-Christians had access to this.

Psalm 19 says that the Heavens declare the glory of God - in ancient times, it literally meant to say that there's a natural theology from the top-down through which God is known, and so even the gentiles to some degree all knew God... Which is why Cyrus, a gentile, was referred to as anointed by God, although he was not someone who even practiced Judaism. There's this natural theology...

And so pagans like Achilles are absolutely condemned by this natural theology.... But the pagan who would have sworn to Hector, "Of course, your body shall be returned to your mother, your city, your people, to be buried, and I thank you for the favor if it befalls me..." would be, at least in this moment, operating within this framework...

But yeah, I think I gotta read the Iliad again and get a clue as to where Homer stands on all of this... That might determine whether or not we think of Homer as a natural theologian who affirms sound, theistic thinking, like what we often say of Socrates or Aristotle, or whether he's just a poetic subverter of right thinking.

[annatar1914]

I agree that we absolutely should try to be strong and fit - I think there really was a sense of frustration among less athletic, less strong boys back in the tribal communities because it was literally through the physical prowess and cunning of the tribe's men that they survived at all. There would be a real feeling that if I am not one of the best warriors who can win in combat, I let down my family and the whole tribe...

This is a basic, productive human emotion...

And it has a moral element: the man who got drunk and couldn't help with the kids the next day feels like a failure; the married man who finds himself accessing smut and committing onanism feels yucky even if it is the case that his marriage bed has been cold for years... and I think this is also all about moral strength - the hardest kind of strength! - and that non-Christians had access to this.

Psalm 19 says that the Heavens declare the glory of God - in ancient times, it literally meant to say that there's a natural theology from the top-down through which God is known, and so even the gentiles to some degree all knew God... Which is why Cyrus, a gentile, was referred to as anointed by God, although he was not someone who even practiced Judaism. There's this natural theology...

And so pagans like Achilles are absolutely condemned by this natural theology.... But the pagan who would have sworn to Hector, "Of course, your body shall be returned to your mother, your city, your people, to be buried, and I thank you for the favor if it befalls me..." would be, at least in this moment, operating within this framework...

But yeah, I think I gotta read the Iliad again and get a clue as to where Homer stands on all of this... That might determine whether or not we think of Homer as a natural theologian who affirms sound, theistic thinking, like what we often say of Socrates or Aristotle, or whether he's just a poetic subverter of right thinking.

@Verv :

I do know that the Fathers aren't unanimous on the issue of Homeric poetry and the education received from such sources, but the problem is there lo these many centuries.

We speak of using the spoils of the Egyptians gold and silver to build the Temple of Israel, but the controversy remains. In any case discernment is necessary.

Because I don't think that we're going to be faced with an open Paganism per se, but rather I believe that it'll be a " Christianity" operating in the spirit of the Pagan world, familiar to a student of the Crusades and the Arthurian legends perhaps.

Now however we who favor more the Roman heritage can look to Hector and Hectors Trojan spiritual heir Aeneas for the closest Pagan antipode to Achilles, Aeneas who had more desire to embody " Pietas" more than " Gloria" I guess that I could say. And I think that the early Republican Romans thought as much too about the matter. Of course, note that with Hellenism came a return to Monarchy and Aristocracy with the Empire and Emperors who seemed to think equally of themselves as being heirs of Alexander as of Julius Caesar.

Personally, I come down as believing that Homer was a subverter of right thinking and that Achilles is his ideal, just as he was the ideal of Alexander later.

But again into consideration I look at the merciless contempt the Godly heroes of Scripture have for the Biblical counterparts of the Homeric warrior: Goliath, Sisera, Holofernes, etc... This issue is more complicated than it seems at first glance.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Godstud , and @Political Interest :

One of the genuine surprises for me in writing on this thread is that not only does it seem to subvert the comfortable expectations of others, but that contemplating it's themes sometimes compels me to subvert my own personal expectations as well. That is, what one is to think upon certain issues, contemporary matters.

It's no surprise that I support Russia in the Ukrainian conflict, I have my reasons and will not belabor the point by going over the reasons why at this juncture, for now.

Likewise, I support Israel and America in the present conflict in the Middle East. Again I have my reasons which I will likewise not go into with this particular post. On a visceral and emotional level I am not inclined to support Israel and America in the Middle East at all, but I find myself doing so anyway.

But what this post is about is the notion I believe in that this is all the same war, worldwide, and that initial confusion as to what entities are on what particular side will eventually be clarified:

That is to say, that some entities will be forced by reality to realize their real interests lie on one side and not another, and then the war will clearly be that between two blocs, hot or cold. Serbia, Russia, Israel on one side, the West and the Islamic world on the other. Sure, I understand that it appears unlikely on at least a superficial level that would have to see a Western break with Israel and a Russian break with Iran and the Islamic world/Global South, but that's exactly what I believe will happen.

Furthermore, in keeping with the themes of this thread, and since this is on the spirituality section of PoFo after all, I will attempt to explain why upon a spiritual basis that I see this as going forward in the manner I see it as happening, and why. Moreover, how it connects to the recent posts I've made on this thread.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Godstud , and @Political Interest :

This post may seem senseless in context at first, but I do relate it to the previous post and more recent comments and events.

It's about time, and purpose embedded in time.

From the human perspective, it's hard to see pattern and meaning in recent events. But it's staring right back at us hiding in plain sight.

The Fathers told us that the Jews would return to the Holy Land shortly before the end of the world, and while at first returning to the Holy Land in unbelief regarding Orthodox Church, would convert in large numbers towards the end. The return from the exile of many centuries has already happened in our modern times, and so the other related event is yet to come.

This is the hand of God at work, clearly seen.

Is it a reason for adoption of a non Jewish Zionism of a sort? Not exactly, that doesn't necessarily follow. The attitude of the Christian should then remain the same towards the nation state of Israel as towards any other non Christian polity, or person for that matter. Many evils can be potentially or in reality done by such a nation state or on its behalf, or good. We know what evils any nation can do, collectively speaking. So, it appears that a real " Christian Zionism" is not tenable or justifiable as a political ideology, but a Christian citizen or subject of such a polity should be as good a citizen or subject, as in or with any other polity. No more or no less. Having said that, it's important to remark that strictly speaking " Israel" is from the Christian theological view the name of the Church, the " Israel of God", not the ethnic community of Jews or religious sect known as Judaism.

Far more important then for the right-believing Christian is the relative nearness of the time towards the purposeful consummation of human history, it's goal which lies connected with the Christian
expectation of the promise of the return of Jesus Christ in His Glory with all His Saints, to Judge the world and render unto each man according to his works.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Godstud , and @Political Interest :

This post may seem senseless in context at first, but I do relate it to the previous post and more recent comments and events.

It's about time, and purpose embedded in time.

From the human perspective, it's hard to see pattern and meaning in recent events. But it's staring right back at us hiding in plain sight.

The Fathers told us that the Jews would return to the Holy Land shortly before the end of the world, and while at first returning to the Holy Land in unbelief regarding Orthodox Church, would convert in large numbers towards the end. The return from the exile of many centuries has already happened in our modern times, and so the other related event is yet to come.

This is the hand of God at work, clearly seen.

Is it a reason for adoption of a non Jewish Zionism of a sort? Not exactly, that doesn't necessarily follow. The attitude of the Christian should then remain the same towards the nation state of Israel as towards any other non Christian polity, or person for that matter. Many evils can be potentially or in reality done by such a nation state or on its behalf, or good. We know what evils any nation can do, collectively speaking. So, it appears that a real " Christian Zionism" is not tenable or justifiable as a political ideology, but a Christian citizen or subject of such a polity should be as good a citizen or subject, as in or with any other polity. No more or no less. Having said that, it's important to remark that strictly speaking " Israel" is from the Christian theological view the name of the Church, the " Israel of God", not the ethnic community of Jews or religious sect known as Judaism.

Far more important then for the right-believing Christian is the relative nearness of the time towards the purposeful consummation of human history, it's goal which lies connected with the Christian
expectation of the promise of the return of Jesus Christ in His Glory with all His Saints, to Judge the world and render unto each man according to his works.

@Verv , @Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Godstud , and @Political Interest , @wat0n :

And now, evidence for what I speak:



It will happen.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin , @Tainari88 , @Godstud , and @Political Interest :

My father having died a little over a month ago, my thoughts and feelings have been all over the place. Of course his illness was a very long one, so his loss to me and my family was actually correspondingly long as well: the long goodbye.... I have had time to think.

We are Mysteries not only to each other, but to ourselves! I spent my whole life with an especially mysterious and singularly unique man for a father. Whatever the past, I see now how blessed by God that I truly was because of this uniqueness and mystery.

I didn't always appreciate that. Now that I'm older, I understand more by my acceptance than i was by my former striving to live as others do. We all have a role, and no role is too " small" or the same.

I know, ultimately a peculiarly " Magian" view of reality, to borrow the term as I've used it before.

I remember too my father intently encouraging me to watch programs and read books on magic, slight of hand, theater, but
also math and the hard sciences, and along with all manner of strange and esoteric things, or so they seemed at the time. Now I know better as to why, maybe better than he understood it consciously himself. Learned more from him than all my years in school, and even despite the fact that by temperament we didn't often get along and were very different people from each other.

I'm still finding myself remembering how almost nothing he said or did with regards to me was random or on a mere whim. Still teaching, I gather...

There's been too much worldliness in my thinking. My habits of mind and heart, such that I still lack discernment in so many things. I still categorize things in a modern way: " I am a Socialist ", " I support _______", etc.. What I am thinking about is the antidote to Modernity, to Politics and Philosophy, and subject these issues to the way they really should be regarded.

Because the Future until the return of the Son of God Jesus Christ, is with the Pagan, with the Nietzschean. Heracles, Dionysus, Apollo, Achilles, and so on. The Giants, the " Superman ".

This is because the Modern as it abolishes itself leads back always to that which birthed it, because natural man cannot abide the sickness and decay of a hypocritical and heretical " Christianity ". Athens and Sparta have nothing to do with Jerusalem, but the sons of Heracles least of all.

Thank you father.

[Verv]

That is all quite beautiful.

Life is always more beautiful than fiction - not just because fiction is fake, but because you lose a lot of beauty when you hammer it into a story with a plot. Beauty is best when it is disembodied and not tied down.

[annatar1914]

That is all quite beautiful.

Life is always more beautiful than fiction - not just because fiction is fake, but because you lose a lot of beauty when you hammer it into a story with a plot. Beauty is best when it is disembodied and not tied down.

@Verv :

Thank you friend. And I believe that you are right about Beauty: if one is in tune with the Real, one sees and experiences Beauty, lovely beyond compare even as sometimes it pierces your heart.