Beginnings of default on debt in U.S. economy (October 2023) - Page 9 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15303147
QatzelOk wrote:"We borrowed a trillion dollars in the last three months"

Image

A trillion divided by 400 million:
2,500 $ of debt per person added in just the last 3 months

***

* The USA government borrowed $2,500 dollars *using you as collateral* in the last three months alone...

* This is like each person in the USA *borrowing* another $2500 in the last three months.

***

Q: If you were borrowing $2,500 per month and were already in debt for $250,000... how long before you would reach bankruptcy?

Because that is what is happening... per capita.
Per capita means YOU.
And YOU can't stop this in your democracyTM.


You don't understand. It will never be paid back. Gov. deficit spending added $2,500/ month into the economy for me. The Gov. can always make the payments, because it can create dollars.
#15303605
Interest Rates and Inflation? || Prof. Steve Keen; a debate with Erick Tymoigne.

I don't really see them talk about inflation.


At the 29 min. mark Dr. Keen points out that with a full fiat dollar (this means that the US Gov. does not borrow from the private sector, instead it lets the rich open interest paying accounts at the Fed with money the Gov. gave them), the US can have the Fed buy enough dollars of bonds to equal plus a little the total interest on the debt. Then because the Fed pays 98% of its revenue to the Treasury, all of the interest that is paid to the Fed goes right back to the Treasury. This means that the interest on the debt has no effect on the economy because it moves zero net dollars in or out of the economy. However, the other bond holders do get paid interest, it is just that somewhere else an equal amount of dollars is removed from the economy. Am I right about this being the reason?




.
#15304080
Steve_American wrote:You don't understand. It will never be paid back. Gov. deficit spending added $2,500/ month into the economy for me. The Gov. can always make the payments, because it can create dollars.

Only under certain conditions, @Steve_American - there must be underused resources and labour power available in the economy which the extra money can activate to generate real wealth equal to or greater than the paper wealth of the extra currency. You keep missing that out, which is why @QatzelOk isn’t buying what you’re selling.
#15304288
Potemkin wrote:Only under certain conditions, @Steve_American - there must be underused resources and labour power available in the economy which the extra money can activate to generate real wealth equal to or greater than the paper wealth of the extra currency. You keep missing that out, which is why @QatzelOk isn’t buying what you’re selling.

It's not just that, Potemkin.

Being able to conjure money out of thin air... is only possible if all the other actors in the economy let you do this... let you play banker with infinite funds.

Perhaps Americans themselves are so brain-dead from suburban fentanyl that they will continue to let this scam roll on... but the USA imports products from the rest of the world. Why would China let you buy all their production with Play Money?

Is this why the USA has so many bases? To force the world to accept Play Money?
#15304294
Potemkin wrote:As the saying has it, if you owe your bank $100 thousand dollars, then you’re in trouble. But if you owe your bank $100 million dollars, then your bank is in trouble. As @late pointed out, the US government is not like a private individual.


Image
"Don't worry, Qatz. The oligarchs will be fine!"


I am very aware that micro and macro are different.
But the results of macro-bankruptcy are things like civilizational collapse and mass starvation.

There is no magic in macro-economics either. Stop pretending that the lack of transparency of our macro-money-managers means that there are tricks that can be played to pull collective solvency out of a hat.

Sure, the money-managers might survive collective bankruptcy, but none of the posters in this thread will.

Many smart-alecky posters are accusing ME of confounding micro and macro economics. But in reality, it is YOU who are confounding the survival of oligarchs with the survival of the civilizations they leech off of.
#15305240
Potemkin wrote:Only under certain conditions, @Steve_American - there must be underused resources and labour power available in the economy which the extra money can activate to generate real wealth equal to or greater than the paper wealth of the extra currency. You keep missing that out, which is why @QatzelOk isn’t buying what you’re selling.


I disagree.
The US CAN ALWATS make the payments.
I the situation you described, there will be some inflation over the 2% target, well at least maybe.
However, WHICH IS WORSE, defaulting on the payments, which would likely cause a depression, or a little inflation.
Besides which the US could also increase taxes on the rich somehow. With more revenue it can make the payments.

Everyone, please let me repeat my position.
The US should return to a 70% to 90% income tax rate for the rich and find a way to collect it from US citizens who use tax havens.
#15305241
QatzelOk wrote:It's not just that, Potemkin.

Being able to conjure money out of thin air... is only possible if all the other actors in the economy let you do this... let you play banker with infinite funds.

Perhaps Americans themselves are so brain-dead from suburban fentanyl that they will continue to let this scam roll on... but the USA imports products from the rest of the world. Why would China let you buy all their production with Play Money?

Is this why the USA has so many bases? To force the world to accept Play Money?


Wrong.

It is always possible for the US to conjure money out of thin air. US banks also do it every working day.

It may cause inflation.

The rest of the world knows what you don't seem to know. Which is that default by the US would kill hundreds of millions because of the resulting depression.

That is worse for the world than a little inflation in the US.

Besides many nations have debts in dollars that they actually can't pay. Inflation in the US helps them get dollars to pay their debts with cheaper dollars.

BTW --- the dollars is still strong against the Thai baht.
#15305380
Steve_American wrote:It is always possible for the US to conjure money out of thin air. US banks also do it every working day.

You believe in magic money. Thank you for displaying your credentials.

It may cause inflation.

This reminds me of the "avoid inhaling" on cigarette packaging.

"Printing trillions of dollars with nothing to back it up may cause inflation. Avoid QE."

The rest of the world knows what you don't seem to know. Which is that default by the US would kill hundreds of millions because of the resulting depression. ..

Yes, if the rest of the world stops taking American fiat currency as "gold," the world will die. The magic money machine is what keeps us alive and healthy.

If you are a money expert, I am starting to see how the last few generations have thrown their own offspring into debt slavery.

"We believed in magic money trees, and now we practice cannibalism and live outside on the streets..."
#15305383
QatzelOk wrote:
You believe in magic money. Thank you for displaying your credentials.


This reminds me of the "avoid inhaling" on cigarette packaging.

"Printing trillions of dollars with nothing to back it up may cause inflation. Avoid QE."


Yes, if the rest of the world stops taking American fiat currency as "gold," the world will die. The magic money machine is what keeps us alive and healthy.

If you are a money expert, I am starting to see how the last few generations have thrown their own offspring into debt slavery.

"We believed in magic money trees, and now we practice cannibalism and live outside on the streets..."



You need to go learn.
#15305386
late wrote:You need to go learn.


I have learned a lot from reading Steve_American in this thread.

Apparently, our "economy" is composed of killing foreigners and stealing their resources... as well as printing paper money and forcing the world to use it at gunpoint.

Whenever someone notices that our economy is going off a cliff because of financialization... someone will say "It's complicated" and go back to whatever racket they were working on.

People who want to live off of theft... need to learn how to lie very effectively. And "People who want to live off of theft" are at the core of many important nation-states.
#15305400
QatzelOk wrote:
Whenever someone notices that our economy is going off a cliff



Not only is the economy not going off a cliff, it is growing briskly, and the indications are that will continue.

Economists fall into 3 camps, optimists, pessimists, and I'm outta here.

I was once a Cassandra, I got tired of being wrong. Perhaps one day you will tire of being wrong.
#15305481
late wrote:Not only is the economy not going off a cliff, it is growing briskly...


I just saw a high-speed rail train fly by my window on its way to Miami.

Oh wait, it was just a rusty old Dodge Ram on its way to a food bank. My bad.

Here is a video that helps explain the "why" of the upcoming collapse of the USA dollar, and Western financial capitalism (the shell game) with it.

#15305483
QatzelOk wrote:
Here is a video that helps explain the "why" of the upcoming collapse of the USA dollar, and Western financial capitalism (the shell game) with it.



It's been several years since he made that prediction, the dollar didn't collapse. But every attempt to remove the reserve status of the dollar did fail.

First Rule of Holes: When you're in one, stop digging.
#15305487
late wrote:It's been several years since he made that prediction, the dollar didn't collapse. But every attempt to remove the reserve status of the dollar did fail.

First Rule of Holes: When you're in one, stop digging.


"I've been smoking three packs of cigs all my life, and I still haven't had the heart attack that my doctor predic.... ugh.... ahhhh!!"

*dies at 41 of heart attack*
#15305495
late wrote:You prob don't smoke. I did. 2nd smartest thing I ever did was quit.

Yes, so that was one hole you were in that you stopped digging.

Going into more debt by blowing up the world... in order to bolster the dollar... makes the same sound as a thousand shovels make from deep within a hole (a hole of debt and of increasing animosity from the rest of the worldTM).
#15305500
late wrote:I look forward to when you do what I did over 40 years ago..

I quit smoking a long time ago.

When will you stop lying for the oligarchs?

When will you stop regurgitating their mainstream media lies and distractions?

America's debts are unpayable. Period.

What happens to countries that can't pay their banksters their mandatory tithe?
#15305512
QatzelOk wrote:

What happens to countries that can't pay their banksters their mandatory tithe?




That's complicated.

You'd expect that, at some point, we would lose reserve status. But we're not within 10 country miles of that point.

I will mention one thing, people with a microeconomic outlook think there is the potential for stability. That's an illusion. While there are things that increase stability, there's no guarantee they will work. When OPEC cut oil production in the 70s, nothing an American central bank could do would alter that.

I have this terrific book, The Rise and Fall of American Growth, by Robert J Gordon. As you no doubt guessed from the title, he's a pessimist. He's also wrong, the economy has started growing, and is likely to boom.

The book is full of history, like how fast the early Ford cars were adopted. Or charts of how trains got faster and faster, and then just stopped getting faster.

He's a good economist, and an excellent academic, his book is full of charts and graphs that anyone can understand. But, even before things changed, I came away with the feeling the traditional metrics were incomplete.

The computer revolution did not alter the traditional metrics much. But we were not looking deep enough. Nvidia is a trillion dollar company now, thanks largely to their easy to use AI modules.

I think the 'computer revolution' just got started...

Anyway, good luck, kid. You'll need it.
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