[wat0n]

^ I never claimed rape is something unique to the Palestinians. Even right-wing Zionists committed rape in the 1948 war, and it's a stain on them up to this day.

Sure, you can answer a question you were never asked, that's all you can do, but you can't answer the question you were asked can you!

Follow the example of the labor Zionists.

That is, build the institutions that will form the backbone of the state: Armed institutions, civilian institutions, healthcare providers, educational establishments, your domestic economic and industrial capacity, even social insurance - all of these were in place before 1948 and played a pivotal role in organizing what would later become Israel.

Wage a diplomatic and political war, gain the world's sympathy and even recognition, if possible.

You know who's at least trying to do this? The Palestinian Authority, and it will cash in big. Ironically, Hamas actually showed it can do it too when it took over and pacified Gaza in 2007 but decided against pursuing it further to instead choose to be as suicidal as those Zionists trying to openly fight the British were, who were first suppressed by the British until the UK decided to focus more on its own postwar domestic issues and then eventually ended being subdued by the labor Zionists by force in 1948 (an often forgotten fact).

[Sherlock Holmes]

^ I never claimed rape is something unique to the Palestinians. Even right-wing Zionists committed rape in the 1948 war, and it's a stain on them up to this day.



Follow the example of the labor Zionists.

That is, build the institutions that will form the backbone of the state: Armed institutions, civilian institutions, healthcare providers, educational establishments, your domestic economic and industrial capacity, even social insurance - all of these were in place before 1948 and played a pivotal role in organizing what would later become Israel.

Wage a diplomatic and political war, gain the world's sympathy and even recognition, if possible.

You know who's at least trying to do this? The Palestinian Authority, and it will cash in big. Ironically, Hamas actually showed it can do it too when it took over and pacified Gaza in 2007 but decided against pursuing it further to instead choose to be as suicidal as those Zionists trying to openly fight the British were, who were first suppressed by the British until the UK decided to focus more on its own postwar domestic issues and then eventually ended being subdued by the labor Zionists by force in 1948 (an often forgotten fact).

The Palestinians are not allowed (by the Israelis, the US and by sanctions) to buy arms, tanks, planes in Gaza, they are not allowed to build an airport, everything that enters Gaza has to be approved by the Israelis. The Palestinians have waged diplomatic war for decades and already have a great deal of sympathy, but when the United States vetos any action that could compel Israel to adjust its behavior then such "diplomatic war" is a waste of time.

I've shown you before, page after page of UN resolutions calling for an end to checkpoints, home demolition, setter rampages, water theft, administrative detention, settlement building, children being tried and many more, yet none of that has resulted in any pressure on Israel because in every case the US has prevented Israel being forced to comply.

So it is a sick joke to suggest what you do, a sick joke and that is why Oct 7th happened, Israel chose expansion over security, they got territory but the price they paid is to be insecure, eternal danger from those they oppress.

[wat0n]

The Palestinians are not allowed (by the Israelis, the US and by sanctions) to buy arms, tanks, planes in Gaza, they are not allowed to build an airport, everything that enters Gaza has to be approved by the Israelis. The Palestinians have waged diplomatic war for decades and already have a great deal of sympathy, but when the United States vetos any action that could compel Israel to adjust its behavior then such "diplomatic war" is a waste of time.

I've shown you before, page after page of UN resolutions calling for an end to checkpoints, home demolition, setter rampages, water theft, administrative detention, settlement building, children being tried and many more, yet none of that has resulted in any pressure on Israel because in every case the US has prevented Israel being forced to comply.

So it is a sick joke to suggest what you do, a sick joke and that is why Oct 7th happened, Israel chose expansion over security, they got territory but the price they paid is to be insecure, eternal danger from those they oppress.

The Zionists didn't have an air force when the Palestinian militias started hostilities right after bipartition was announced and the Arab armies invaded, ignoring UNGA resolution 181. That's not the core of what a state is.

And Zionists also took decades to build up a state, and be able to defeat the neighboring Arab states.

[Pants-of-dog]

This way started because the Israeli government and the IDF created intolerable living conditions in Gaza that ended up causing the October 7 attack.

When we discuss the "ongoing genocide", we are not only discussing the actions of the IDF and Israeli government since October 7. We are discussing events that have occurred decades ago, or like the blockade of the Gaza strip both ongoing and decades old.

This goes back to the same first question I had when I first entered this debate:

Why did Hamas attack?

[wat0n]

This way started because the Israeli government and the IDF created intolerable living conditions in Gaza that ended up causing the October 7 attack.

When we discuss the "ongoing genocide", we are not only discussing the actions of the IDF and Israeli government since October 7. We are discussing events that have occurred decades ago, or like the blockade of the Gaza strip both ongoing and decades old.

This goes back to the same first question I had when I first entered this debate:

Why did Hamas attack?

How far back in time do you want to go to?

Will you pretend Hamas has never attacked Israeli civilians before in your attempt to support its massacre?

[Pants-of-dog]

To argue that the war started on October 7 is to pretend the IDF and Israeli government have never attacked Palestinian civilians before, and is an attempt to support an ongoing quotidian series of killings.

[wat0n]

To argue that the war started before October 7 necessitates going back all the way, and invariably ends up in accepting the use of deadly force was also started by Palestinian irredentists. History doesn't help you at all.

[Pants-of-dog]

Let us take it back one step at a time.

What caused the October 7 attack?

A logical explanation is that the daily conditions in Gaza were intolerable, oppressive, and were causing deaths among Palestinians in Gaza.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog will you now claim the October 7 attack was a legitimate form of resistance?

It is also interesting you believe mass murder is justifiable when your life sucks, but it is not acceptable to defend yourself from attempted murder

[KurtFF8]

To argue that the war started before October 7 necessitates going back all the way, and invariably ends up in accepting the use of deadly force was also started by Palestinian irredentists. History doesn't help you at all.

You don't have to go "all the way" back at all. Prior to October 7th, in 2023 hundreds of Palestinians had already been killed by Israel.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... ear-record

[wat0n]

You don't have to go "all the way" back at all. Prior to October 7th, in 2023 hundreds of Palestinians had already been killed by Israel.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... ear-record

Yes, you do need to go all the way back. Interesting how history doesn't matter now.

And tens of Israelis had been killed by Palestinians.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The Zionists didn't have an air force when the Palestinian militias started hostilities right after bipartition was announced and the Arab armies invaded, ignoring UNGA resolution 181. That's not the core of what a state is.

And Zionists also took decades to build up a state, and be able to defeat the neighboring Arab states.

I don't see the relevance, you suggested the Palestinians pursue a course of action and I told you that they are unable to and even when they try the Zionist regime and USA prevent it from materializing.

Before 1948 Zionist terrorists had been buying weapons from all over Europe, just after WW2 there was a lot to be had. The did this with money sent by Zionist supporters from all over the world.

Tell me though, how can the Palestinian people gain freedom from occupation when the USA prevents it?

[Sherlock Holmes]

How far back in time do you want to go to?

Will you pretend Hamas has never attacked Israeli civilians before in your attempt to support its massacre?

Why do you want to "go back"? The facts are the facts and we can only go forward, so if we want to improve the quality of life for Palestinians how can that be done?

Well its been attempted for decades but at every turn is thwarted by the USA vetoing resolutions. Attempts to stop Israel's expansion - blocked by USA. Attempts to prevent illegal settlements being built - blocked by USA. Attempts to prevent Israel dominating Jerusalem - blocked by the USA. Attempts to hold Israelis accountable for murder and human rights violations - blocked by the USA.

Are you seeing a pattern? The only way to help these people is to do what's started happening, undermine Israel and the USA partnership. If the USA is a participant then the endeavor is always doomed, blocked.

So with the ICC acting truly independently, the USA is undermined, with Norway, Spain etc recognizing Palestine, the USA is undermined and slowly isolated. This is what we can see and it can work, just isolate the USA and its sick racist partner in crime and the edifice will start to collapse.

More and more people are seeing the facts, the days of being too scared to speak out against Israel are coming to and end, the days of lying about antisemitism and using it as a weapon are coming to an end.

Israel is just a country, not special, not exempt from the laws and norms other nations are expected to adhere to. Israel is nothing, juts a backwater that has been propped up and used by the United States and a bunch of deranged neo-Nazis.

[late]

[wat0n]

I don't see the relevance, you suggested the Palestinians pursue a course of action and I told you that they are unable to and even when they try the Zionist regime and USA prevent it from materializing.

Before 1948 Zionist terrorists had been buying weapons from all over Europe, just after WW2 there was a lot to be had. The did this with money sent by Zionist supporters from all over the world.

Tell me though, how can the Palestinian people gain freedom from occupation when the USA prevents it?

By negotiating with Israel. The Annapolis talks showed it is certainly possible to end the conflict by negotiations, and this war shows forcing Israel's hand won't work. It will be even clearer if Trump wins.

Why do you want to "go back"? The facts are the facts and we can only go forward, so if we want to improve the quality of life for Palestinians how can that be done?

Sure, so why now conveniently ignore all the history and the facts if you want to understand the conflict?

Well its been attempted for decades but at every turn is thwarted by the USA vetoing resolutions. Attempts to stop Israel's expansion - blocked by USA. Attempts to prevent illegal settlements being built - blocked by USA. Attempts to prevent Israel dominating Jerusalem - blocked by the USA. Attempts to hold Israelis accountable for murder and human rights violations - blocked by the USA.

Are you seeing a pattern? The only way to help these people is to do what's started happening, undermine Israel and the USA partnership. If the USA is a participant then the endeavor is always doomed, blocked.

So with the ICC acting truly independently, the USA is undermined, with Norway, Spain etc recognizing Palestine, the USA is undermined and slowly isolated. This is what we can see and it can work, just isolate the USA and its sick racist partner in crime and the edifice will start to collapse.

More and more people are seeing the facts, the days of being too scared to speak out against Israel are coming to and end, the days of lying about antisemitism and using it as a weapon are coming to an end.

How does any of this address the issue of Hamas refusing to negotiate at all?

Also, the US did get Israel to freeze settlement construction, under Netanyahu even, back in the Obama administration. It did not lead to anything because the Palestinian Authority does not control whatever Hamas does, and Hamas did not see this freeze as a reason to negotiate. Even worse, it also led the PLO to harden its positions as it couldn't afford to be seen as being more flexible than the US.

Israel is just a country, not special, not exempt from the laws and norms other nations are expected to adhere to. Israel is nothing, juts a backwater that has been propped up and used by the United States and a bunch of deranged neo-Nazis.

If anything, neo-nazis have also been prominent supporters of the Palestinian cause. Well, plain old Nazis too given what happened with the Mufti.

Not that I expect those who believe October 7 to be a form of legitimate resistance to find this questionable, at all.

[Pants-of-dog]

For those who think the attack by Hamas on October 7 was not legitimate, I have a question:

Do you think that the relationship between Israel and Gaza prior to the October 7 attack was legitimate?

[Sherlock Holmes]

By negotiating with Israel. The Annapolis talks showed it is certainly possible to end the conflict by negotiations, and this war shows forcing Israel's hand won't work. It will be even clearer if Trump wins.

I don't see how negotiating with an illegally occupying power can really yield anything. Jews tried negotiating with the Nazis and did so in Warsaw but eventually realized it was fruitless, I don't see much of a material difference here, the circumstances differ yes but overall we have a militarily powerful state who regards other ethnicities as animals and has shown a determination to expand no matter what anyone else thinks about it, the Third Reich and The Zionist regime have a lot in common.

Sure, so why now conveniently ignore all the history and the facts if you want to understand the conflict?

If you want to discuss history then go ahead, but I don't see how that helps us improve the situation for Palestinians.

How does any of this address the issue of Hamas refusing to negotiate at all?

One can only negotiate if its done in good faith, not while someone insists on demolishing your houses, trying children in secret courts, setting up roadblocks all over the place, supporting the construction of illegal settlements and so on. That's not a basis for a negotiation any more than Jews in Warsaw could negotiate with the occupying Nazis, its frankly ridiculous, laughable that you seriously suggest this.

Also, the US did get Israel to freeze settlement construction, under Netanyahu even, back in the Obama administration. It did not lead to anything because the Palestinian Authority does not control whatever Hamas does, and Hamas did not see this freeze as a reason to negotiate. Even worse, it also led the PLO to harden its positions as it couldn't afford to be seen as being more flexible than the US.

Really? where do you get your history from anyway?

If anything, neo-nazis have also been prominent supporters of the Palestinian cause. Well, plain old Nazis too given what happened with the Mufti.

This is selective memory again, sifting the historic record looking to situations to support your case that Israel is a victim, it's ridiculous and frankly shameful. The Zionist terror groups operating in Palestine between the 1st and 2nd World Wars was comparable to Nazism. Before WW2 even started there were Zionist fanatics setting up schools teaching racist ideologies just as the Hitler Youth did. Zionist terror groups (one of which went on to become the IDF) beat and harassed non-Zionist Jews, a form of Nazism was practiced by the Zionists if you want to see proof just ask me, I'll be happy to share it here.

Not that I expect those who believe October 7 to be a form of legitimate resistance to find this questionable, at all.

Well we do have international law, and some Hamas leaders are being targeted by the ICC, so if we use international law to define "legitimate" (rather than allowing Israel to define it) then we must accept that Israel has in fact acted illegitimately far beyond what Palestinians ever did, just look at the lengthy list of UN resolutions that Israel has ignored and which were never enforced.

[wat0n]

I don't see how negotiating with an illegally occupying power can really yield anything. Jews tried negotiating with the Nazis and did so in Warsaw but eventually realized it was fruitless, I don't see much of a material difference here, the circumstances differ yes but overall we have a militarily powerful state who regards other ethnicities as animals and has shown a determination to expand no matter what anyone else thinks about it, the Third Reich and The Zionist regime have a lot in common.

Israel and Egypt negotiated an end to the Israeli occupation of the Sinai, including the removal of settlements. History doesn't support this projection.

If you want to discuss history then go ahead, but I don't see how that helps us improve the situation for Palestinians.

History can also be useful for finding the way ahead. After this war, I'd look into the peace process between Israel and Egypt for guidance.

One can only negotiate if its done in good faith, not while someone insists on demolishing your houses, trying children in secret courts, setting up roadblocks all over the place, supporting the construction of illegal settlements and so on. That's not a basis for a negotiation any more than Jews in Warsaw could negotiate with the occupying Nazis, its frankly ridiculous, laughable that you seriously suggest this.

Even then, talks went nowhere because Hamas wasn't part of them.

Really? where do you get your history from anyway?

From here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/worl ... diplo.html

This is selective memory again, sifting the historic record looking to situations to support your case that Israel is a victim, it's ridiculous and frankly shameful. The Zionist terror groups operating in Palestine between the 1st and 2nd World Wars was comparable to Nazism. Before WW2 even started there were Zionist fanatics setting up schools teaching racist ideologies just as the Hitler Youth did. Zionist terror groups (one of which went on to become the IDF) beat and harassed non-Zionist Jews, a form of Nazism was practiced by the Zionists if you want to see proof just ask me, I'll be happy to share it here.

More nonsense, also allow me to remind you there was also antisemitism and incitement in the Arab sector. Which featured prominently in the Hebron massacre and ethnic cleansing of 1929.

Well we do have international law, and some Hamas leaders are being targeted by the ICC, so if we use international law to define "legitimate" (rather than allowing Israel to define it) then we must accept that Israel has in fact acted illegitimately far beyond what Palestinians ever did, just look at the lengthy list of UN resolutions that Israel has ignored and which were never enforced.

Sure, as far as international law is concerned, settlements are also illegal. But this is not nearly as bad as mass murder in my book.

Do note Hamas went as far as to record itself committing the massacre.

For those who think the attack by Hamas on October 7 was not legitimate, I have a question:

Do you think that the relationship between Israel and Gaza prior to the October 7 attack was legitimate?

No. Sporadic rocket attacks against Israeli cities weren't legitimate. Hamas' 2007 coup wasn't legitimate. But tell me, would you have tried to topple Hamas?

Also, does this question mean you do find October 7 to be a form of legitimate resistance?

[Sherlock Holmes]

No. Sporadic rocket attacks against Israeli cities weren't legitimate. Hamas' 2007 coup wasn't legitimate. But tell me, would you have tried to topple Hamas?

Also, does this question mean you do find October 7 to be a form of legitimate resistance?

Rocket attacks against an illegal occupying force are of course legitimate, armed resistance is legitimate. This is a war of national liberation, don't you agree with this at least?

Read the Geneva Conventions from 1949, you'll see it is a protected right of an occupied people. If the Israelis don't like being attacked then they should leave Gaza and the West Bank immediately, it's that simple. Furthermore if you do ever take the time to read that treaty text (Israel and Palestine is a signatory and thus bound by it) you'll read of the obligations that an occupying force has toward the occupied population, this is part of the basis for the arrest warrants for Nazinyahu, the violation of the law.

Were war crimes committed by Hamas operatives during the Oct 7 attacks? yes it seem very clear that was the case. Having said that the IDF killed Jews as well, they committed war crimes killing their own population. If Israel acts illegitimately on the scale it does for the time period it has, then it's disingenuous to try and single out Hamas crimes alone.

If you actually cared one iota about war crimes and illegitimate conduct why are you silent about Israel when the duration, magnitude and scale of its brutality dwarfs Oct 7th?

Is it war crimes and crimes against humanity you care about or just crimes against Jews? Why are you even posting here? what is the core motive driving you to post?

If you could speak to the Knesset, what advice would you give them in order to reduce the probability of future attacks like Oct 7th?

[wat0n]

Rocket attacks against an illegal occupying force are of course legitimate, armed resistance is legitimate. This is a war of national liberation, don't you agree with this at least?

Read the Geneva Conventions from 1949, you'll see it is a protected right of an occupied people. If the Israelis don't like being attacked then they should leave Gaza and the West Bank immediately, it's that simple. Furthermore if you do ever take the time to read that treaty text (Israel and Palestine is a signatory and thus bound by it) you'll read of the obligations that an occupying force has toward the occupied population, this is part of the basis for the arrest warrants for Nazinyahu, the violation of the law.

Were war crimes committed by Hamas operatives during the Oct 7 attacks? yes it seem very clear that was the case. Having said that the IDF killed Jews as well, they committed war crimes killing their own population. If Israel acts illegitimately on the scale it does for the time period it has, then it's disingenuous to try and single out Hamas crimes alone.

If you actually cared one iota about war crimes and illegitimate conduct why are you silent about Israel when the duration, magnitude and scale of its brutality dwarfs Oct 7th?

Is it war crimes and crimes against humanity you care about or just crimes against Jews? Why are you even posting here? what is the core motive driving you to post?

If you could speak to the Knesset, what advice would you give them in order to reduce the probability of future attacks like Oct 7th?

Wrong! Deliberate attacks against civilians are always illegal under international law.

Since this war was started by Hamas on October 7, why exactly wouldn't I focus on the massacre? Are you trying to say it was a legitimate form of resistance?

Also, Israel did not occupy Gaza prior to October 7, the fact Hamas took over Gaza and chooses to insist on attacking Israeli civilians does help to explain why Israel does not want to leave the West Bank unilaterally. Plus, chances are that you would then Israel itself should be destroyed and that this justifies continued fighting - as Hamas itself has said.