[NoRapture]

The Nazis did this frequently.

Godwin's Law! Godwin's Law! I call Godwin's Law! Or "Guilty Israeli's Law" as we refer to it here in Tennessee.

[Todd D.]

Bawww, we have all these shiny weapons and every time we drop them on some brown skinned people there is an outrage. Sorry Todd, world has moved on. We don't like to see thousands or millions of people killed for no reason, get used to it and be thankful for it because when you loose your hegemony, any trillion dollar deficit now, it would mean that you won't become a colony of China.

Sorry, most sane people don't consider "You fired rockets at our towns" to be "no reason". You might, but your higher reasoning skills are prone to question, so I would suggest most not take you seriously anyway.

Please, continue to think that Israel is the aggressor when a dozen rockets were shot in to Israel TODAY. Keep defending atrocities, just so long as they aren't committed by the US or Israel, right?

What about when the other side starts the fight? Maybe Israel has no right to complain that Hamas resists the occupation and land theft and murder and starvation of the people of Palestine? Actually, what you are saying, but dressed up in a pretty frock, is 'Might is Right'.

What I'm saying is very simple, there's no need to dress it up. You have a right to defend yourself and your property, and your aggressor loses their right to complain when they don't like how you defend yourself.

What you are saying is that a rapist gets to complain when a woman stabs him in defense. "Hey, all I was going to do was rape her!! That was totally not proportional!!"

The Nazis did this frequently.

How original...

[QatzelOk]

How original...

It's as old as The Prince.

And yet you, Todd D, seem to have been fooled by this ancient tactic. I guess Israeli media has prepared the American public very well for its version of tyranny.

Todd D considers himself very savvy, and yet he regurgitates Israel's Machiavellian propaganda.

How sad...

[sploop!]

What you are saying is that a rapist gets to complain when a woman stabs him in defense. "Hey, all I was going to do was rape her!! That was totally not proportional!!"

Except the rapist is Israel, and his Palestinian victim only managed to poke him in the eye, so he responded by beating her to a pulp before continuing with getting his own way.

[NoRapture]

[mb edit: sig images should be discussed in the sig images forum, or by PM; this is not the place, NoRapture]

[Falx]

Sorry, most sane people don't consider "You fired rockets at our towns" to be "no reason".

And most sane people would be correct.

You might, but your higher reasoning skills are prone to question, so I would suggest most not take you seriously anyway.

Coming from a libertarian I could think of no higher compliment.

Please, continue to think that Israel is the aggressor when a dozen rockets were shot in to Israel TODAY.

Poor Israel is the victim obviously. Just to clarify, how many rockets have been fired into Gaza? How about the rockets from Lebanon, or are those Kosher rockets?

Keep defending atrocities, just so long as they aren't committed by the US or Israel, right?

I must have missed where a few hundred Israelis were killed by the rockets from Hamas, right now those rockets are at the same level of atrocity against Israel as throwing rocks against its tanks is.

[Todd D.]

More justification for "proportionality" from Falx. "I know we started it, but we get to tell you that you're going too far in defending yourself!"

How cute.

Let me know when adults enter the thread.

[Falx]

"I know we started it, but we get to tell you that you're going too far in defending yourself!"

"We"? So I am a Palestinian and the Palestinians have an over mind that controls their every action? Or am I a member of Hamas? "Yourself" so you are and Israeli and your actions too are controlled by an omni present over mind? Or you are Ehud Olmert as he is the only Israeli that I know is in control of Israel. Now you have to be careful about how racist you are, too much and you end up banned, too little and you're not patriotic enough.

Or more likely you are using a tribalist mentality in the 20th century of "us" -good guys- versus "them" -bad guys- super imposed on completely faceless state actors that are amoral and inhuman in principle. You thereby simplify the extremely ambiguous morality of states and violent conflict between them until you can take a predetermined stance on the issue, that is, Palestinians deserve everything they get and Israel is blameless.

Let me know when adults enter the thread.

More tantrums? Grow up.

[MB.]

Cease the adhoms gentlemen.

[noemon]

Hey Todd D. how come you do not post in the Today's news?

The existence of so many threads for one single subject and the avoidance of certain posters to post into the main one where most of the news are posted only indicates a certain pre-disposition to run around in circles asserting unjustifiable statements for the sake of volume.

Any Israeli justification to bomb civilian areas under the "pretense of shielding", ends when there is no establishment of safe zones for civilians to take cover and usher segregation which are the only conditions under which the "human shield argument" would become viable.

Still, the Israeli apologetic "evidence" remain all the more profoundly, laughable.

Israel broke the truce, and hence any justification for the attack constitutes flat out bias, as Israel never lifted the blockade as it agreed to do. Moreover, Hamas honoring the agreement can be seen from the volume of rockets falling now than before, and by the creation of Israeli civilian deaths now(post-incursion) rather than before.

European governments and the EU condemn Israeli aggression.

EU commissioner Louis Michel:

"Israel in breach of international law"

Current Israeli War crimes.

The myth that Hamas is not one to conduce talks with is a fallacy used to ascertain expansionism, aggression, and irredentism since peace-talks would neutralize Israel's ability to expand by reproducing its militaristic superiority, and if you do not talk to your foe to who do you expect to talk to? If solution and peace is ones projected objectives? Hamas has repeated time and time again, that she is keen with pre-1967 borders, the Arab initiative has affirmed that it backs such talks, and most of Israelis have stated so as well. Somehow though the Israeli gov. allegedly fails to find anyone deemed worthy enough to discuss it with, despite the fact that they all seem to be in relative agreement as of the basis for negotiations.

The Israeli motive for the bombardment of civilian areas, and further analysis.

Let me know, what is it exactly, that is condonable out of this crescendo? The banishment of Western journalists? The refusal to allow the UN to conduct investigations on the details pertaining to the bombardment of their school for which Israel was given specific coordinates?

[Maas]

Sorry, most sane people don't consider "You fired rockets at our towns" to be "no reason".

I think the main reason still lies with the ethnic cleansing of the people who shoot them lil rockets towards the people who pick the fruits from that horror and think joyfully back to that exact day.... somewhat just like you thinking that there is no reason what so ever. By gones can be by gones when you set things straight in some way.

[Dempsey]

Did anyone see the Daily Show on Jan. 5? It was really anti-Israel for being an American show owned by Viacom. I was surprised.

January 5, 2009 Strip Maul

Israel gets their bombing in before the January 20th hope and change deadline.

January 5, 2009 Baby New Year 2009

This Gaza thing is like Baby New Year being born with herpes

[Voltaire]

Israel Is the only person responsible for the arab hate towards it. How would you feel if you were palestinian and Israelies had walled and gaurded settlements in your country and no palestinians were alowed in? Either way I think we all know that Israel is metaphoricaly Americas main military base in the middle east.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Israel is punching above its weight in the propaganda war as it always does. It has developed media strategies, has Israeli journalists on its side in the media, has a propaganda unit and has a powerful lobby in Washington.

The reason that there is so much outcry about Israel is not that Hamas is doing a better job at propaganda... it's just that there are only a certain number of children you can kill and a certain number of people that you can effectively stick in a concentration camp before the average viewer starts to question your ethics.

[W01f]

it's just that there are only a certain number of children you can kill and a certain number of people that you can effectively stick in a concentration camp before the average viewer starts to question your ethics.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. Hamas doesn't have much of a propaganda "operation" going on anyways. Their propaganda is the facts on the ground. The truth of what's actually going on, and what can't be ignored.

[Dempsey]

W01f

This pretty much sums up my feelings. Hamas doesn't have much of a propaganda "operation" going on anyways. Their propaganda is the facts on the ground. The truth of what's actually going on, and what can't be ignored.

But there is also old dated European animosity


http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/05/1002005/

Greek weekly calls Jews ‘Christ killers’
January 5, 2009

ATHENS (JTA) -- A weekly Greek newspaper calls Jews "Christ killers" in an editorial about the Gaza conflict.

George Karatzaferis, the publisher of A1, also wrote in the Sunday issue that "in less than 70 years the main victims of Hitler's brutality turned into the same heinous murderers as their persecutor."

"Israel feels that in the name of the Holocaust it can still misbehave, be indecent, blackmail, and debase institutions and people," the editorial in the 6,000 circulation weekly said.

Karatzaferis, the head of the far right political party LAOS, says that with some effort the Jews could be placed among the nations of justice, "but what do you expect from a race that crucified God the only time he came to earth." Later he asks rhetorically, "Yet would God killers care about a few hundred innocent children?"

The editorial ends by saying, "Unfortunately it is known all over the world that a Jew smells of blood."

This is not the first time that Karatzaferis has attacked the Jews. On Dec. 29, his party issued a statement regarding the bombardment of Gaza that said, "Someone has to pull the ear of the darling child of the West, Israel. Its aggressiveness and malice against non-combatants, whose only precedent can be found during Hitler's time, cannot leave the international community indifferent."

[noemon]

Karatzaferis, is a clown, an ultra-nationalist, France's Le Pen friend, that is at the margins of Greek society, who produces his own paper(A1) from which this is taken.

Much like the previous time you tried to make your case about Greece, your picking up of the most radical elements of countries does not constitute evidence of antisemitism by said countries. Their marginal position in society actually constitutes evidence to the contrary.

Nor does it constitute evidence that this is contributing to Palestinians winning "the propaganda war".

[Dempsey]

This pretty much sums up my feelings. Hamas doesn't have much of a propaganda "operation" going on anyways. Their propaganda is the facts on the ground. The truth of what's actually going on, and what can't be ignored

For the facts. The official number of fatalities is determined by the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053403.html

IDF ban on reporters in Gaza combat zones leads to limited coverage

By Avi Issacharoff

Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Israel

The Israel Defense Forces' refusal to allow reporters into the combat zones in the Gaza Strip is making it difficult for journalists, including television stations interested in broadcasting video from the field, to cover the fighting in Gaza.

The IDF ban is forcing journalists to rely on reports from Israeli soldiers and the IDF spokesman. Even Palestinian reporters who live in the Strip are having trouble covering the fighting because it is difficult for them to leave their homes or the buildings from which they're broadcasting.

As a consequence, journalists are not really getting an overall picture of the fighting, and are forced to piece stories together based on statements from Palestinian residents and IDF soldiers. This can affect important details in reporting, such as the number of The official number of fatalities is determined by the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas.Palestinian civilians killed.

After the Israeli bombing of a school in Jabalya on Tuesday, which killed at least 30 Palestinians, the ministry announced that a total of about 640 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the IDF operation, on December 27. But the ministry does not provide any statistics regarding how many of the fatalities are Hamas gunmen killed in clashes with the IDF and how many are non-combatants, and has even said that since the ground incursion began Saturday, all the Palestinians killed have been civilians.

In addition, Hamas leaders and operatives are in hiding for most of the day and are barely giving interviews, and cell-phone service in Gaza has been cut off for hours at a time since Monday, two factors that make it difficult to maintain contact with Palestinian sources.

[Nattering Nabob]

Hamas is indeed winning the propaganda war but it will be a Phyrric victory if ever there was one...


The aggressor has the advantage of choosing the field of battle and Hamas chose the civil populace as it would maximize their advantage.

[Dempsey]

noemon

You ignore that in this case the clown shares something with wide Greek opinion



http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2018

The Jewish problem, according to Theodorakis

By Ari Shavit


The root of evil
Question: Mr. Theodorakis, on November 4, 2003 you said in this house the words that shocked Jews and non-Jews across the world. You said that the Jewish people are at the root of evil. What did you mean?

..."No. And I was very much hurt by the Jewish reaction to what I said. It was not a civilized reaction. I got hundreds and hundreds of poisonous e-mails from Jews all over the world. I couldn't understand this hatred toward me. I fought against racism all my life. I was for Israel. I wrote "Mauthausen."
After all that, how could I become from one day to the next an anti-Semite?"

Tales of childhood
Let us go a bit deeper. Let us go back in time. When you were a child, before the Holocaust, what were your impressions of the Jews?

"The Jews of Greece were not different from the Greeks. They were entirely Greek. They loved their work and loved their family. At school they were the best. Good friends, good neighbors. No problems."

But there must have been something problematic as well. They were the other. They were different.

"The Jews were picturesque. I remember that for the old women, the Jews were the ones that crucified Christ!

"In 1932 I was in Ioannina. There was a very big Jewish community there. I played with the Jewish boys all the time. My grandmother was very religious. She had a room full of icons. She sang psalms. Much of my music was influenced by her religious singing. And I remember that in springtime she said to me: Now that it's Easter, don't go to the Jewish quarter. Because during Easter the Jews put Christian boys in a barrel with knives inside. Afterward they drink their blood."

Was this story imprinted in your young mind?

"It was a very powerful image. Years later, before I became a communist, I was a member of a fascist youth movement. It was a state-sponsored movement during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas. We walked up and down the streets in uniform and heiled all the time. It was a bit like the Hitler Youth but comical. One day they gave me an assignment: to talk the next day about communism. I went home and asked my mother what is communism. She said she didn't know but she thinks it's something evil. What kind of evil, I asked. Evil like the Jews, she said. So I asked her if the communists also put little boys in barrels with knives and drink their blood.

"What do I want to say by telling you all this? These things exist. I wasn't aware of it before, but now, through your questions, I realize it is there."

Would you agree with me that for Christian Europe the Jewish people is not just another people. The Jews have a unique role in the inner theater of the European mind.

Mikis Theodorakis, on several occasions, when criticizing Israeli policy, you used the Nazi analogy. Criticism of Israeli occupation is justified. But why use terms such as "Israel's Nazi mentality" or "Israel's Nazi barbarity"?

"To me it seems very natural to make this comparison because Israel is very much connected with Nazism. I wrote this to you this morning: After the Holocaust, the Jew is the anti-Nazi. Forever. You are condemned to be that. Six million voices are calling on you. They are calling out, never again camps. They cannot even imagine that Israel would adopt similar methods. There is no need for Israel to create the gas chambers. If you kill women and children, it's a similar thing."

But it goes further than that? You think there was a dramatic transformation here. You think the Jews were transformed from being the Nazis' victims to being the new Nazis.

"It was a gradual process. The fact that the Jews were led to the gas chambers in a peaceful way, almost like lambs, troubled them deeply. They wanted to show that they are not sheep. That they can become wolves.


With your permission, I'd like to go back to your upbringing. To what you were taught at a very young age. How do you explain your grandmother's fear of the Jews?

"I think it came from religion. From the priests."

It had to do with the killing of Christ?

"Yes. My grandmother was not a well-educated woman."

I am trying to understand her. Not to judge her. Perhaps the fear of the Jews had to do with the fact they killed the son of God. If someone has the power to kill the son of God, he has enormous power.

"I think that the attitude of the Greeks toward the Jews has its roots i n the way the Jews behaved themselves. In small communities like ours, there were no secrets. We knew that among the Jews there were secrets they did not share with us. They wanted to be different. To keep separate. I understand that. It comes from a need for self-defense."

Can you give me examples?

"Very often there were love affairs between Jews and Greeks. But the Jewish families did not want their young to marry Christians. But this closeness and secretiveness, it provokes. They never invited me to a Jewish home. I had Jewish friends. They came to my house. But I was never invited to their homes. I wanted to go in and I was not allowed. So I began wondering why not. What's happening there. The Jews paid a price for trying to keep their Jewishness. Their closed society."

Were there other reasons for the special attitude toward the Jews?

"Yes. There was something else. When a Jew progressed, especially to control commerce or to have economic power, it provoked envy. You have that kind of envy for successful Greeks as well. But in the case of the Jews, the perceived wisdom was that he became rich not because of his talent but because he was a Jew. And the Jews could pull strings to help one another to progress."

So for you it was the secretiveness and closeness of the Jews that was the most troubling. Not the role of the Jews in the Jesus story.

"At that time, that story did not interest me. For the Greek Orthodox Church, it was important. Anyway, during the war the Jews were chased like animals. And we in the progressive movement saved tens of thousands of Jews. The Jews of Thessaloniki were the victims of the rabbis who didn't let them come and hide in the mountains with us. For us, the Jews of Greece were not different from the Greeks. They were entirely Greek."