Eugenics: Economics for the Long Run - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#81513
An economic argument for eugenics.

http://www.eugenics.net/papers/miller1.html

In practice, eugenics programs may take the form of trying to reallocate child bearing from families with undesirable traits to families with desirable traits. This should increase for the next generation the proportion of the population with desirable traits. Although such programs are traditionally referred to as eugenics programs (i.e. ones to improve the population genetically), such programs can be expected to work for traits transmitted within families from parents to children regardless of whether such transmission is by genetic means or by other means. All that is necessary to predict the success of such programs is to know the correlation to be expected between parental traits and those of the offspring, information that is already available for many traits.

Even when the degree of political support for direct eugenic measures is weak [...] consideration of the eugenic effects of alternative ways of accomplishing certain goals might change the ranking of alternative methods for accomplishing these goals, and produce some eugenic benefits.


I would suggest reading the whole article before criticising it.
By Gustav Fluffy
#81604
This should increase for the next generation the proportion of the population with desirable traits.


So what in your opinion is desirable then? Simple generalizations such as this can never be applied to whole the population. I also expect that there would be a higher percentage of so called undesirable parents than desirable ones. :roll:
By Al Khabir
#81755
But the population worldwide is already too high. What a solution! Neuter all those with mental deficiencies and serious hereditary diseases! Although as a human I do not particularly agree with the concpet, I would certainly not object to that... unless you decide to neuter everybody who has "undesirable traits" whihc is obviously completely un-necessary.
#15149925
although this kind of ideology is mismatch in this subforum by all means , somehow points that corporatism can maximize eugenics in own purpose eg. for colonizing the moon or mars, although such fantasies are now just crispr dreams for sequencing maybe chimeras after ww3, till then any revocation of the eugenic topic is unnecessary wasted time for most of us, with exception maybe for (around the world) deep state genetic-labs!
#15149931
Eugenics was a necessary evil in Churchill's time, when we could not edit genes. The next generation of gene editing tools is capable rewriting a single letter mistake and precise correction of the malign mutation which causes a genetic disease such as progeria. ABE editing has the potential to synergize with emerging progeria treatment. Children with progeria generally appear normal at birth, while it causes children to age rapidly, starting in their first two years of life.

Correcting pathogenic alleles that cause devastating diseases is a longstanding challenge in medicine. Base editing provides an opportunity to directly correct point mutations that drive many disorders without requiring double-strand DNA breaks. In some tissues, modest DNA editing resulted in disproportionately large benefits at the RNA, protein or tissue levels. The outsized benefits of DNA editing suggest that edited cells may contribute disproportionately to the health of tissues in this animal model. Further studies are needed to understand the molecular basis of this phenomenon (Koblan et al. 2021).

Scientists have shown they can change that one letter and create healthier, longer-lived mice.

Their study, published Wednesday in the journal Nature,demonstrates a tool that can correct the kind of single-letter genetic mistakes that cause thousands of diseases.

"There’s a long road" before the tool, called a base editor, can be used to treat a genetic disease, says the paper's senior author, David Liu, a chemist at Harvard University. "But establishing that a base editor can correct a mutation that causes a systemic and devastating genetic disease in an animal, rescuing many of the symptoms of the disease and greatly extending lifespan is a good start!"

In this case, Liu and his colleagues repaired a gene that, when mutated, causes progeria, an ultra-rare disease leading to premature aging. The average lifespan of someone with progeria is just 14, and they die of conditions such as heart disease that usually kill people decades older.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/hea ... 556277002/
#15150031
ThirdTerm wrote:Eugenics was a necessary evil in Churchill's time


indeed this would be stupid problem in uK because the prevailing trend of consanguineous marriages, what probably earlier was just mainstream royal practice [1][1] that was later copied by the local clans or even peasants, and apparently became indeed stupid problem [2][2] but the problem of one population and its potential risk management cant be applied identically to every other, simply eugenics have risen to level of superhumanity idealism, some sort of physician strive to compete with ideals through genetic (back then inheritance) empiricism to extent that darwinism became mainstream theory which in the end was used as humanistic excuse for frankenstein utopianism!

I am not sure how deep went british with experimenting, officially not too deep [1] but who can tell for sure what was happening in Africa and India, yet they were the technocratic cream that even today is existing in different forms [2] although cant tell whether nowadays the american or chinese scientists are leading the superhuman race, surely soviets have had similar approach but I guess their momentum is no more mainstream ideal!?

~

ThirdTerm we went little too oftopic, so I'll ask You if needed replay to me in another more specific or general thread on eugenic goals, here eg. I'l propose more economic reason for its illogical "humanistic" "perfectionism" as we should understand this world and life as paradise, but exactly thats the problem with the enlightened elitism they see themselves as goods and we people just myriad of junkies slaves and tools!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
#15152115
ok probably this dont bother anyone, meritocratic racism what else could go wrong!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_race_and_intelligence_controversy#Early_history

Testing, from France to North America - http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/connections/535eecb77095aa000000023a

https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/338884/from-iq-tests-to-eugenics.html

now embrace urself we are again leveling the road for superhumanity, genetic counting of convenient to breath and breed humans is already started, in some eugenic manner, for now maybe as corona fit selection, the rest will pass to the second round!?

https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/04/02/144169/dna-tests-for-iq-are-coming-but-it-might-not-be-smart-to-take-one/

I am guessing the time reference as now, if hedonistic treadmill is correct and time is faster by factor x2 in this century, then instead in 30 years it should be 15, but we are already two decades in it, DONT PANIC this is just mine superstitious symmetry of scientific echoes with reference point is 1904 when IQ started and lebensborn program rerationalized its effects just before ww2. are we just few years from ww3 then? DONT WORRY I am just playing naively wrongly with numbers, altho its good one to have bunker in his probably village safe house and survivalist know-how at hand, wherever and whenever ww3 happened!
#15309274
Lets coincidence decide the motor of evolution

Genetic editing which is risky we will become a weak species.

I am also against doctors help to a couple to get children... A female orgasm is helpfull to get pregnant and 100 Million sperms fight and just the best reaches its goal. This process is optimized over billions of Years... artificial fertilisation leads often to quadruplets now imagine what side effects has genetic editing could have.



Steven Hawking was physically damn ill but his brain reached the edge of the universe...

Einstein had a son with gentic disease (Schizophrenia)


I am against killing of disabled people like Hitler did because this is inhuman and their care provides jobs for many women... I meat once a physicist and electro engineer who was entirely crazy but brilliant

Many European Pagans let disabled babys in Forests die even the Greeks, abrahamic religions take care of the weak
#15310124
Skynet wrote:Steven Hawking was physically damn ill but his brain reached the edge of the universe…


Some disabled people have great compensatory talent but they're exceptions. In the future it may be possible to design "perfect" people but AI may still ultimately top us.
#15310683
starman2003 wrote:Some disabled people have great compensatory talent but they're exceptions. In the future it may be possible to design "perfect" people but AI may still ultimately top us.



The human body is just max. 50% genetics but you can switch on and off genes with your lifestyle (Epigenetics).

I can recomend a this fitness Guru:

https://youtube.com/@ThomasDeLauerOffic ... 5T5PoRPd0v



Indeed but I think the strongest system will not be an AI , it will be a bionic human connected with a supercomouter... (brain computer interface)
#15310723
I'd just like to point out that this thread is over 24 years old.

Ixa wrote:An economic argument for eugenics.


A lot of dumbshit can be justified with economics.
#15310753
Skynet wrote:Indeed but I think the strongest system will not be an AI , it will be a bionic human connected with a supercomouter... (brain computer interface)


Future authorities may want a longer lasting bionic human than one susceptible to aging and death. Switch off the gene for aging before establishing the interface with a computer.
#15310821
starman2003 wrote:Future authorities may want a longer lasting bionic human than one susceptible to aging and death. Switch off the gene for aging before establishing the interface with a computer.


There are methodes to stay longer young by an Testosterone increasing diet (creatine, borone, zinc, eaa...)



But eternal life we will never reach... if it would be simple some mamal would have be born with this mutation... but up now no trace of anything close to eternal life
#15310915
Skynet wrote:There are methodes to stay longer young by an Testosterone increasing diet (creatine, borone, zinc, eaa…)


And a generally good diet, and fasting.

But eternal life we will never reach... if it would be simple some mamal would have be born with this mutation... but up now no trace of anything close to eternal life


In order for a lineage to survive, it must evolve and to do that there must be death, so the better adapted can take over if/when there's environmental change.
But that doesn't preclude artificial prolongation of life--not literally eternal but quite some time.
#15312237
Eugenics as a concept is quite interesting since it is mostly something supported by apolitical people I know, while the political people I know (aside from the odd fascist-types) all generally oppose it.

I think its because from a utilitarian perspective it makes perfect sense, but from a liberal/libertarian perspective, religious conservative / christian perspective, and egalitarian/leftist perspective it is violates one of their core beliefs in each faction respectively.
#15312447
Ronaldo_ wrote:Eugenics as a concept is quite interesting since it is mostly something supported by apolitical people I know, while the political people I know (aside from the odd fascist-types) all generally oppose it.


Sure, the advocates of fascism (or wholism as I prefer to call statist authoritarianism) are marginalized. As long as their opponents are dominant the idea of improving humanity, via some method or other, is anathema. But what if democracy eventually cracks, and religion greatly wanes, while caesarism revives. It may not mean eugenics, but the rise of artificial beings incorporating AI, perhaps even 3-D printed.

I think its because from a utilitarian perspective it makes perfect sense, but from a liberal/libertarian perspective, religious conservative / christian perspective, and egalitarian/leftist perspective it is violates one of their core beliefs in each faction respectively.


Decades ago I felt that eugenics, together with euthanasia and sterilization, is the key to a better civilization. Equalitarian/democratic/christian values and institutions ensure that tremendous sums are wasted on retards and lowlifes while the gifted are neglected. Progress in space, to cite one example, would be so much faster, if values and priorities were diametrically different. Christianity and democracy shackle civilization; wholism would liberate it and propel it to the stars.
It is a terrible fallacy to assume technical advances are all that's needed. Values must also improve. What use advanced technology if the resources needed to propagate and utilize it fully are tied up in mental institutions and nursing homes?
#15312450
starman2003 wrote:
Sure, the advocates of fascism (or wholism as I prefer to call statist authoritarianism) are marginalized. As long as their opponents are dominant the idea of improving humanity, via some method or other, is anathema. But what if democracy eventually cracks, and religion greatly wanes, while caesarism revives. It may not mean eugenics, but the rise of artificial beings incorporating AI, perhaps even 3-D printed.



Decades ago I felt that eugenics, together with euthanasia and sterilization, is the key to a better civilization. Equalitarian/democratic/christian values and institutions ensure that tremendous sums are wasted on retards and lowlifes while the gifted are neglected. Progress in space, to cite one example, would be so much faster, if values and priorities were diametrically different. Christianity and democracy shackle civilization; wholism would liberate it and propel it to the stars.
It is a terrible fallacy to assume technical advances are all that's needed. Values must also improve. What use advanced technology if the resources needed to propagate and utilize it fully are tied up in mental institutions and nursing homes?



Rationality is derived from ratio. That means striking a balance between competing interests.
No system is perfect, but it's the best we've got.

Countries that have devalued people run into trouble, and let's admit the obvious, people have value. Let me complicate that a bit... Think of a society as an ecology. You make a part of it extinct, there may not be a dramatic result. But, we know that sometimes, damage to one part of an ecology can result in a catastrophic cascade failure.

Even better, there is no way to ascertain which part will be the one. Cascade failures are unpredictable.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time..
#15312451
starman2003 wrote:Sure, the advocates of fascism (or wholism as I prefer to call statist authoritarianism) are marginalized. As long as their opponents are dominant the idea of improving humanity, via some method or other, is anathema. But what if democracy eventually cracks, and religion greatly wanes, while caesarism revives. It may not mean eugenics, but the rise of artificial beings incorporating AI, perhaps even 3-D printed.


Holy shit it's hilarious coming back here after a decade seeing people adapt the same arguments into the modern era. Now we have fascists preaching "wholism," saying we're going to have a 3D printed master race imbued with the power of artificial intelligence.

:lol:

This has to be a joke.
#15312481
late wrote:Countries that have devalued people run into trouble,


Nations such as Rome didn't necessarily "devalue" people, but an emphasis on the whole society or cause, as opposed to the individual, made them strong vis a vis other nations.


and let's admit the obvious, people have value.


People have leverage, as long as they're needed by civilization. But present humanity will become superfluous if or when economic activity becomes the domain of machines. Anything that's not needed anymore may have limited survival prospects, and won't be missed.

grassroots1 wrote:
Now we have fascists preaching "wholism"


Now? This began over 20 years ago. :) The term "fascism" is obsolete; it's a failed system of the 20th century. Time to move on, think of something new.
Last edited by starman2003 on 18 Apr 2024 16:15, edited 1 time in total.
#15312482
starman2003 wrote:
Nations such as Rome didn't necessarily "devalue" people, but an emphasis on the whole society or cause, as opposed to the individual, made them strong vis a vis other nations.




People have leverage, as long as they're needed by civilization. But present humanity will become superfluous if or when economic activity becomes the domain of machines. Anything that's not needed anymore may have limited survival prospects, and won't be missed.



Modern capitalism is quite different from the way things were thousands of years ago.

Yeah, here you are using an old understanding of economics. Which also is of limited relevance in the modern world.

I was trying to explain that, but it clearly didn't take.
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